05-23-2012, 07:14 PM
I just don't understand how people say they're "saved" yet continue to live in and practice sin.
I hope this helps someone, it helped me:
I hope this helps someone, it helped me:
05-23-2012, 07:14 PM
05-24-2012, 03:53 AM
Can you prove to me you don't sin in Heart, mind and body?
Paul was at least honest about his struggle with sin (doing evil) even after he beleived on Christ and had received his salvation.
Roms 7:4 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? shall is a future tense
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Roms 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. the condemnation is not to hell and it is for them that walk after the flesh. They are not condemned if they walk after the spirit. this does not mean they have sinless perfection.
sinless perfection in this life is a false doctrine of men. Every man who taught it still sinned in heart, mind and body.
But thank goodness we are saved from all our sins past present and any future ones we may commit. Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; see that plural that is all but gives me no reason to continue therein but gives me reason to walk anew i this life. Roms 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. did you notice that baptism here is not immersion?
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: remember that being forgiven sin is not equal to being free from ever sinning again in this life. No where in God's word did he say a man will never sin again after he had faith on Christ. But that man does have forgiveness of sins not just the past and present but future. and man who sins is led by his flesh but a man led of the Holy Ghost will cease from sin. Not "never sin again"
His sins can never send him to hell and what wonderful news that is. that is motivation enough for us to not sin any more but to seek out to be holy even as he is holy.
Paul was at least honest about his struggle with sin (doing evil) even after he beleived on Christ and had received his salvation.
Roms 7:4 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? shall is a future tense
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Roms 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. the condemnation is not to hell and it is for them that walk after the flesh. They are not condemned if they walk after the spirit. this does not mean they have sinless perfection.
sinless perfection in this life is a false doctrine of men. Every man who taught it still sinned in heart, mind and body.
But thank goodness we are saved from all our sins past present and any future ones we may commit. Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; see that plural that is all but gives me no reason to continue therein but gives me reason to walk anew i this life. Roms 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. did you notice that baptism here is not immersion?
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: remember that being forgiven sin is not equal to being free from ever sinning again in this life. No where in God's word did he say a man will never sin again after he had faith on Christ. But that man does have forgiveness of sins not just the past and present but future. and man who sins is led by his flesh but a man led of the Holy Ghost will cease from sin. Not "never sin again"
His sins can never send him to hell and what wonderful news that is. that is motivation enough for us to not sin any more but to seek out to be holy even as he is holy.
05-24-2012, 10:04 AM
Where did anyone say you're going to have sinless perfection? Chette what's your point?
05-24-2012, 09:41 PM
saved sinners that is the point
05-24-2012, 09:50 PM
(05-24-2012 09:41 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]saved sinners that is the point
Saved sinners or hypocrites? Or just workers of iniquity?
05-25-2012, 05:00 AM
silver07, have you sinned anytime since you got saved?
05-25-2012, 08:41 AM
(05-25-2012 05:00 AM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]silver07, have you sinned anytime since you got saved?
Sure, and repented for it. It doesn't mean I live in it, practice it or promote it like religion does today.
You don't willingly jump back into sin after being "saved". There is a conversion process that takes place. Being "saved" means saved from your sins. It goes on daily. It's not a one time thing. After all, what was the new covenant (New Testamnet)? It was changing the external to internal. Not because the law was flawed, but because the flesh is!
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV)
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV)
What law is he talking about? The Torah!
I get sick of people taking Paul's letters and twisting his words around religious doctrine. This is the whole basis behind the largest religion in the world.
Paul was neither a Christian or a follower of this religion which practices and promotes sin. Why is this so hard for us hard headed Americans to understand? None of the people of the bible were Christians or followed this doctrine. So if we aren't folllowing in the path of Jesus and the faith of the people of the bible, then what are we doing? What are we in?
Said respectfully and not directed at any individual. Shalom!
05-25-2012, 07:57 PM
Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: Saul who is Paul
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. I think it is sfae to say Paul was a Christian. It s not said to be attributed by pagan Rome, nor is it said to be given them by the Jews (don't trust Scholars to give you the answers you must 2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.. It seems by the construction of the sentences that it could have been Barnabas and Saul/Paul who called the disciples Christians.
Peter later uses the word Christian speaking of believers. 1Peter 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
And Peter concluded that Paul's writings were of inspiration of God an called scriptures 2Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
you need to learn the difference and divide between the church of God, the Jews / Israel and the gentiles. there are two churches one Jewish israeli one set aside by Acts 9, there is the Body of Christ the fulness of Christ who is called the church, and the two are not the same.
There is three Gospel spoken of from Matthew to Acts 8 it is the Gospel of the Kingdom the work added was repentence, baptism in water for remission of sins, and works meet for repentence . Mt 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Holy Ghost to those who believe and Fire for those who are to be destroyed (look at the context fire and judgement go together).
the is the gospel of Grace revealed to Saul/Paul where is faith alone with no work Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
None of us I nor you have purposely "jumped" back into our sinful lifestyle we lived before our Faith on Christ. But we do still occasionally sin and that makes us saved sinners. remember the Pharisee's outward no one was as righteous as them but inward they were said to full of dead mans bones Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
and that sin comes from within and is not seen until it comes out. Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? heart issue
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. these are the things that make a man unclean not eating with unwashed hands.
there is not one man who is not a sinner and that includes those whoa re sin.
I guarantee you and I need only ask your wife, children or mother, that you sin. and you have not repented of every sin you have ever commited or that you will commit and their are some sins you think you repented of and you will sin that sin again.
Your righteousness is not in your works it is in Christ. if you place confidence in your works then you make his cross of no effect in your life and you will be judged by the law you are trying to keep and you will fall short of God's glory and righteousness.
Respectfully said
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. I think it is sfae to say Paul was a Christian. It s not said to be attributed by pagan Rome, nor is it said to be given them by the Jews (don't trust Scholars to give you the answers you must 2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.. It seems by the construction of the sentences that it could have been Barnabas and Saul/Paul who called the disciples Christians.
Peter later uses the word Christian speaking of believers. 1Peter 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
And Peter concluded that Paul's writings were of inspiration of God an called scriptures 2Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
you need to learn the difference and divide between the church of God, the Jews / Israel and the gentiles. there are two churches one Jewish israeli one set aside by Acts 9, there is the Body of Christ the fulness of Christ who is called the church, and the two are not the same.
There is three Gospel spoken of from Matthew to Acts 8 it is the Gospel of the Kingdom the work added was repentence, baptism in water for remission of sins, and works meet for repentence . Mt 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Holy Ghost to those who believe and Fire for those who are to be destroyed (look at the context fire and judgement go together).
the is the gospel of Grace revealed to Saul/Paul where is faith alone with no work Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
None of us I nor you have purposely "jumped" back into our sinful lifestyle we lived before our Faith on Christ. But we do still occasionally sin and that makes us saved sinners. remember the Pharisee's outward no one was as righteous as them but inward they were said to full of dead mans bones Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
and that sin comes from within and is not seen until it comes out. Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? heart issue
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. these are the things that make a man unclean not eating with unwashed hands.
there is not one man who is not a sinner and that includes those whoa re sin.
I guarantee you and I need only ask your wife, children or mother, that you sin. and you have not repented of every sin you have ever commited or that you will commit and their are some sins you think you repented of and you will sin that sin again.
Your righteousness is not in your works it is in Christ. if you place confidence in your works then you make his cross of no effect in your life and you will be judged by the law you are trying to keep and you will fall short of God's glory and righteousness.
Respectfully said
05-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Wow. We've been trained well to only follow religion.
As for attacking righteousness and anyone who attempts to follow in the path of Jesus Christ, good luck with that.
As for attacking righteousness and anyone who attempts to follow in the path of Jesus Christ, good luck with that.
05-25-2012, 09:17 PM
(05-25-2012 07:57 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. I think it is sfae to say Paul was a Christian.
You skipped over the most important word. I'll underline and bold it since this seems to be the trend:
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Now, lets see what Saul has to say:
21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. (2 Corinthians 11:21, 22)
05-26-2012, 04:37 AM
I never forgot it, it was UNDERLINED and BOLD in my original post. Lets see Saul was there a whole year when they were called Christians first there. And he taught there afterwords. You have no proof that Paul was not a Christian. when he was there he too was called a Christian.
And when it came to being a Hebrew, a pharisee of pharisee this is what Paul had to say about it. Php 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Counted loss for Christ
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, see that word dung, he counted being a mosaic law following hebrew to be dung, crap, doodoo, poopoo, waste, and draught. Look up that last word it cross references really well in the king James, and so does dung. You see dung in most of its uses is animal waste which is unclean and to be burnt without the gate but there is a few times it is human waste. In Mal 2 you can see what God thought about their fiests, their traditions and even the law of Moses they kept in hypocrisy.
But you forgot that Antioch is a Church, and it was churches Paul ministered in and they were called Christians i these churches. And as pointed out it may have been Saul/Paul who called them such. Not the scholarly answer that the name was called them for derision by the Romans or pagans. NO proof of that from the text especially seeing Peter called them Christians as well.
Quote:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.you are so good at taking verses out of context. He is taking about his apostleship and his ministry to the church not that he wasn't a Christian or that he was claiming some kind of doctrinal creed that He wasn't a Christian. that would be a doctrine of men.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. (2 Corinthians 11:21, 22)
And when it came to being a Hebrew, a pharisee of pharisee this is what Paul had to say about it. Php 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Counted loss for Christ
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, see that word dung, he counted being a mosaic law following hebrew to be dung, crap, doodoo, poopoo, waste, and draught. Look up that last word it cross references really well in the king James, and so does dung. You see dung in most of its uses is animal waste which is unclean and to be burnt without the gate but there is a few times it is human waste. In Mal 2 you can see what God thought about their fiests, their traditions and even the law of Moses they kept in hypocrisy.
But you forgot that Antioch is a Church, and it was churches Paul ministered in and they were called Christians i these churches. And as pointed out it may have been Saul/Paul who called them such. Not the scholarly answer that the name was called them for derision by the Romans or pagans. NO proof of that from the text especially seeing Peter called them Christians as well.
05-26-2012, 09:02 AM
I'll post this one more time for clarity.
The bible is a hebraic book written by hebrew authors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul were all Hebrews and from Jacob (Israel) on, Israelites. They all had the same faith. The only faith spoke about in the bible (Ephesians 4:5). Everything else is religion.
Christianity is a Greco-Roman doctrine of the bible. It has its own faith which is not the same faith of the authors of the bible. The main reason is because it shares different church fathers.
Hebrew Israelite church fathers, Jesus and his disciples: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David and the rest of the prophets.
Christianity church fathers:
Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 CE)
Tertullian (155-230 CE)
Marcion (110-160 AD)
Constantine ( 321 AD )
The bible is a hebraic book written by hebrew authors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul were all Hebrews and from Jacob (Israel) on, Israelites. They all had the same faith. The only faith spoke about in the bible (Ephesians 4:5). Everything else is religion.
Christianity is a Greco-Roman doctrine of the bible. It has its own faith which is not the same faith of the authors of the bible. The main reason is because it shares different church fathers.
Hebrew Israelite church fathers, Jesus and his disciples: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David and the rest of the prophets.
Christianity church fathers:
Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 CE)
Tertullian (155-230 CE)
Marcion (110-160 AD)
Constantine ( 321 AD )
05-26-2012, 08:31 PM
(05-26-2012 09:02 AM)Silver07 Wrote: [ -> ]I'll post this one more time for clarity.
The bible is a hebraic book written by hebrew authors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul were all Hebrews and from Jacob (Israel) on, Israelites. They all had the same faith. The only faith spoke about in the bible (Ephesians 4:5). Everything else is religion.
Christianity is a Greco-Roman doctrine of the bible. It has its own faith which is not the same faith of the authors of the bible. The main reason is because it shares different church fathers.
Hebrew Israelite church fathers, Jesus and his disciples: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David and the rest of the prophets.
Christianity church fathers:
Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 CE)
Tertullian (155-230 CE)
Marcion (110-160 AD)
Constantine ( 321 AD )
You quote a video of the teach of a man and produce no Bible verses for your claims.
I follow none of these mentioned above therefore you are wrong to lump all Christians into one group.
Still you forget about the Apostle Peter a Jew who called fellow Jews, he was an apostle to the circumcision, when he exhorted them that if they suffer as a Christians.
and still you support a doctrine of man that Christianity was a greco-roman doctrine. Not one bit of scripture for that false doctrine.
You act as if you are an unbeliever if you do not believe Gods word enough to quote it to prove what you are teaching is correct.
Most of what these MEN you are posting don't teach the truth of the Bible and only use it to support their precept out of context as you did earlier in this thread.
05-27-2012, 12:04 AM
Although the following verses may not apply doctrinally to this age, they certainly have a spiritual application to all of those people who claim to be Jews and, according to the Scriptures, clearly are NOT. According to the Holy Bible the people who claim to be Jews and are not are committing BLASPHEMY and are LIARS!
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
In order to understand the spiritual truths found in the Bible a person must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His finished work on Calvary [Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9], and they must personally receive Him as their personal Saviour [John 1:11-13] for their salvation.
The very First “KEY” that a person must have in order to truly understand God’s Holy word is they must have received The HOLY SPIRIT [Romans 8:15] upon receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour; and they must seek to receive their spiritual instruction from the Holy Spirit [1Corinthians 2:6-15], not just men, in order to have “the mind of Christ” concerning spiritual issues [1Corinthians 2:16].
The Second “KEY” to understanding the Bible is “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH”. If a person fails to rightly divide God’s Holy words they will eventually embrace error, or false doctrine, or heresy and end up believing a lie!
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Third “KEY” to Understanding the Bible is acknowledging the unique relationship that The JEWS (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon, the Kings, the Prophets, etc. All Jews i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) have with Almighty God [Romans 3:1; 11:1-28].
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
The following historical observations concerning “Christendom” (i.e. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, and all the so-called “Christian” Cults, etc.) and its relation to the JEWS (i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) is Undeniably True:
Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given specifically to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites} but which have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROMISES – Given solely to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been STOLEN by -A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROPHECIES – Explicitly concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been MISS-APPLIED to - A church; a cult; or an individual.
If a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit living in them, or if they fail to rightly divide the word of truth concerning the unique relationship between the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) and Almighty God, they will eventually end up believing a lie and embracing Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy.
If, after dealing with such people for a short while, I perceive that they refuse to receive instruction in righteousness, I leave off discussing or debating doctrine with them for I have discovered (after many years of frustration) that it is an exercise in futility to try and persuade people who have embraced a lie and refuse to believe the truth!
Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
In order to understand the spiritual truths found in the Bible a person must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His finished work on Calvary [Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9], and they must personally receive Him as their personal Saviour [John 1:11-13] for their salvation.
The very First “KEY” that a person must have in order to truly understand God’s Holy word is they must have received The HOLY SPIRIT [Romans 8:15] upon receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour; and they must seek to receive their spiritual instruction from the Holy Spirit [1Corinthians 2:6-15], not just men, in order to have “the mind of Christ” concerning spiritual issues [1Corinthians 2:16].
The Second “KEY” to understanding the Bible is “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH”. If a person fails to rightly divide God’s Holy words they will eventually embrace error, or false doctrine, or heresy and end up believing a lie!
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Third “KEY” to Understanding the Bible is acknowledging the unique relationship that The JEWS (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon, the Kings, the Prophets, etc. All Jews i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) have with Almighty God [Romans 3:1; 11:1-28].
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
The following historical observations concerning “Christendom” (i.e. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, and all the so-called “Christian” Cults, etc.) and its relation to the JEWS (i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) is Undeniably True:
Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given specifically to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites} but which have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROMISES – Given solely to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been STOLEN by -A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROPHECIES – Explicitly concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been MISS-APPLIED to - A church; a cult; or an individual.
If a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit living in them, or if they fail to rightly divide the word of truth concerning the unique relationship between the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) and Almighty God, they will eventually end up believing a lie and embracing Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy.
If, after dealing with such people for a short while, I perceive that they refuse to receive instruction in righteousness, I leave off discussing or debating doctrine with them for I have discovered (after many years of frustration) that it is an exercise in futility to try and persuade people who have embraced a lie and refuse to believe the truth!
Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
05-27-2012, 03:22 AM
(05-27-2012 12:04 AM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]Although the following verses may not apply doctrinally to this age, they certainly have a spiritual application to all of those people who claim to be Jews and, according to the Scriptures, clearly are NOT. According to the Holy Bible the people who claim to be Jews and are not are committing BLASPHEMY and are LIARS!
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
In order to understand the spiritual truths found in the Bible a person must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in His finished work on Calvary [Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9], and they must personally receive Him as their personal Saviour [John 1:11-13] for their salvation.
The very First “KEY” that a person must have in order to truly understand God’s Holy word is they must have received The HOLY SPIRIT [Romans 8:15] upon receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour; and they must seek to receive their spiritual instruction from the Holy Spirit [1Corinthians 2:6-15], not just men, in order to have “the mind of Christ” concerning spiritual issues [1Corinthians 2:16].
The Second “KEY” to understanding the Bible is “RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH”. If a person fails to rightly divide God’s Holy words they will eventually embrace error, or false doctrine, or heresy and end up believing a lie!
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Third “KEY” to Understanding the Bible is acknowledging the unique relationship that The JEWS (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon, the Kings, the Prophets, etc. All Jews i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) have with Almighty God [Romans 3:1; 11:1-28].
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
The following historical observations concerning “Christendom” (i.e. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Protestantism, Pentecostalism, and all the so-called “Christian” Cults, etc.) and its relation to the JEWS (i.e. Hebrews, Israelites) is Undeniably True:
Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given specifically to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites} but which have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROMISES – Given solely to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been STOLEN by -A church; a cult; or an individual.
Or Almost ALL EXISTING Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy comes from GOD’S PROPHECIES – Explicitly concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}, but which have been MISS-APPLIED to - A church; a cult; or an individual.
If a person doesn’t have the Holy Spirit living in them, or if they fail to rightly divide the word of truth concerning the unique relationship between the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) and Almighty God, they will eventually end up believing a lie and embracing Error, False Teaching, Perverted Doctrine, or Heresy.
If, after dealing with such people for a short while, I perceive that they refuse to receive instruction in righteousness, I leave off discussing or debating doctrine with them for I have discovered (after many years of frustration) that it is an exercise in futility to try and persuade people who have embraced a lie and refuse to believe the truth!
Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
This is rubbish. I'll speak for the so called "Jews" here and tell you that you have absolutely no idea what you are writing about. You are just floundering around all over the scripture here without the faintest bit of undestanding ANYTHING Hebrew. I suggest you study Hebrew literature for at LEAST a year before you presume to claim any knowledge in any of what you are trying to write about.
Trust me here...you are embarrasing yourself.
Now, for the inevitable comeback. I'll help you out here. Buy yourself a Hebrew dictionary and define all the words you try to assume the meaning of in your above statement. I'm sure it will aid you in your further attempt to spread whatever message you are trying to spread here. To put it simply here, you assume too much by far, and it shows quite obviously.
Now for the PST.
Your horrific use of the word "Jew" is about the biggest insult you can do to a Yisra'elite btw...
05-27-2012, 05:31 PM
NO need to go to the Hebrew
IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH OF THE PRESERVED SCRIPTURES IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LAST DAYS "ENGLISH" THEN YOU NEVER WILL UNDERSTAND IT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.
IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH OF THE PRESERVED SCRIPTURES IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LAST DAYS "ENGLISH" THEN YOU NEVER WILL UNDERSTAND IT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.
05-27-2012, 06:19 PM
(05-27-2012 05:31 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]NO need to go to the Hebrew
IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH OF THE PRESERVED SCRIPTURES IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LAST DAYS "ENGLISH" THEN YOU NEVER WILL UNDERSTAND IT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.
Too bad you can't prove a thing you're saying without completely eliminating the foundations of what you worship. That's just pathetic.
Nice loss of temper there.
05-27-2012, 09:02 PM
(05-24-2012 09:50 PM)Silver07 Wrote: [ -> ](05-24-2012 09:41 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]saved sinners that is the point
Saved sinners or hypocrites? Or just workers of iniquity?
I thought I would just wade into your thread and offer some balance, not that I'm knowledgeable or have all the answers. I think you guys are both on the right track and are just saying things a little different. It comes down to semantics, but in the end you are both, I think, Spirit led people who are growing in their faith. I liked both of the videos because they are thought provoking and have some good points. I think when I say, I'm a Christian it means more than the dictionary definition. For me, I'm a Christ follower, implying and literately meaning following his teachings which Chette would, I hope, agree. I don't want to put words into his mouth (keyboard).
This is a favourite verse of mine that puts my life into a Christian perspective. “However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.” Acts 20:24 NIV
I agree with the video pastor that talks about too many people call themselves Christians and it make very little difference in their life. Like Paul, I want to be totally sold out to Jesus and the life he has called me to, not half-hearted but changed in my heart / spirit. So that when I sin, it grieves me to my core and there is nothing to do but repent and turn back to Him. My hope is to finish the race, not wallow in sin and complacency, but call others to the good news of God's grace.
Sorry, it almost got a little preachy there - we need to encourage one another in the faith not make wedges!
05-28-2012, 08:07 PM
(05-27-2012 09:02 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: [ -> ](05-24-2012 09:50 PM)Silver07 Wrote: [ -> ](05-24-2012 09:41 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]saved sinners that is the point
Saved sinners or hypocrites? Or just workers of iniquity?
I agree with the video pastor that talks about too many people call themselves Christians and it make very little difference in their life. Like Paul, I want to be totally sold out to Jesus and the life he has called me to, not half-hearted but changed in my heart / spirit. So that when I sin, it grieves me to my core and there is nothing to do but repent and turn back to Him. My hope is to finish the race, not wallow in sin and complacency, but call others to the good news of God's grace.
Sorry, it almost got a little preachy there - we need to encourage one another in the faith not make wedges!
Halleluyah! You just described the conviction from the genuine holy spirt. After all, this is what the new or re-newed coveant is all about:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people (Hebrews 8:10)
Don't let anyone tell you different if you have this conviction; YOU ARE ISRAEL!
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12)
05-30-2012, 01:32 AM
(05-27-2012 06:19 PM)Natsarim Wrote: [ -> ](05-27-2012 05:31 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]NO need to go to the Hebrew
IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH OF THE PRESERVED SCRIPTURES IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LAST DAYS "ENGLISH" THEN YOU NEVER WILL UNDERSTAND IT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.
Too bad you can't prove a thing you're saying without completely eliminating the foundations of what you worship. That's just pathetic.
Nice loss of temper there.
Oh my nice interpretation.
ALL CAPS can also be a emphasis and in this case that is what it was.
I shake the dust from my feet
05-30-2012, 06:08 AM
(05-30-2012 01:32 AM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ](05-27-2012 06:19 PM)Natsarim Wrote: [ -> ](05-27-2012 05:31 PM)Chette Wrote: [ -> ]NO need to go to the Hebrew
IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE PLAIN ENGLISH OF THE PRESERVED SCRIPTURES IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LAST DAYS "ENGLISH" THEN YOU NEVER WILL UNDERSTAND IT IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE.
Too bad you can't prove a thing you're saying without completely eliminating the foundations of what you worship. That's just pathetic.
Nice loss of temper there.
Oh my nice interpretation.
ALL CAPS can also be a emphasis and in this case that is what it was.
I shake the dust from my feet
Nice try there. Everyone here knows you have a temper tantrum all the time...it's very noticable. You can't lie your way out.
How many times in these forums have you been called down for your temper tantrums or rudeness? looks like 3 to me according to the other posts. Care to grow up a little?