Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

~~Natsarim~~ · (This post was last modified: 05-15-2012 11:03 PM by Natsarim.)

Ok First off...This is not a attack on christians.

My question is: How does one prove that the KJV is the being that created this universe's perfect/unaltered/unadulterated word?

Not attacking the being that created it all or the possibility that he has left words for those he created. I only want someone to explain to me how the words became true only in the KJV...

Some practice questions to get you going.

Did James say that the creator told him to commission the project?
Did he use REALLY pious scribes maybe?
What materials/scrolls and such did they use to put it all together?
What canon did they decide to use and why?
Did anyone having anything to do with the project claim divine inspiration?

So that's it...Why the KJV? What's so special about it?

abreik · 05-15-2012, 11:56 PM

I'm no expert and I'm sure better information can be found online, but if memory serves, KJV was translated using a few very good, though not ancient, source documents. In addition to sources in the original language, the translators would have cross referenced the Latin Vulgate. It was the best English translation at the time even though it did not use ancient sources, some of which probably could have been made available at the time. They were true to the texts that they were using though and avoided church doctrine at the time, or let knowledge of the outcome of prophecy, dictate their translation. Today there are better sources (for academic purpose) that do use ancient sources, but KJV was good for the people at the time. It has held popularity due to tradition.

> Did James say that the creator told him to commission the project?
I don't know, probably. Who cares?

> Did he use REALLY pious scribes maybe?
Of course. The best translators would have been honored to take on the task and none would turn it down. The translators would have been members of the Church of England, and probably a few Puritans.

> What materials/scrolls and such did they use to put it all together?
Look online to be sure, I'm just going off memory, but I believe they used a few common sources in the original language of the section being translated. They didn't necessarily use the oldest available sources, but more likely the most accepted sources. They would have also cross referenced the Latin Vulgate.

> What canon did they decide to use and why?
If by canon you mean standard for translation, then they would have used word for word translation where possible but statement translation where necessary to preserve the intent. Any given passage is up to the translator's opinion on how best to express the meaning but they didn't summarize large segments. Similar to academic translations such as NIV or NRSV but unlike reader translations like The Message.

> Did anyone having anything to do with the project claim divine inspiration?
Not that I am aware of. I've no doubt they saw their work as holy and seeked God's blessing on many occasions. They would not have seen their translation as perfect however as no translation is. I believe they did leave a few notes in the original where other possible meanings could have existed.

No translation of any document can be perfect. The meaning can be maintained though. If you are seeking to know God, pray and invite a response. Be patient as it may not come right away. The modern bible is well studied, so much so that it very well may be truer to the original text then current copies of Shakespeare's plays. No divine intervention is required to maintain the authenticity of the bible and faith in God is not dependent on the preservation of his exact word.

Chette · (This post was last modified: 05-16-2012 06:57 AM by Chette.)

The question of preservation of God's word that you are asking will take a lot more time and bandwidth than can just be quickly explained. But it takes comparing spiritual things with spiritual 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. It is the only way to answer and that is tons of personal study and work.

I was a Christian for 10 years before I discovered the truth and it wasn't from any man. It came by reading the KJV through with a desire to know truth. and that after reading NIV, NASB, NKJV, Amplified, LOV, LTV,TEV, ASV, RSV, and the Tanakh of which I read two versions.

here is what it takes
1) the Holy Ghost
2) Unwavering faith in God to keep his word.
3) a true contrite spirit and humble heart
4) a knowledge of English words

I went to the KJV not to find errors but asked God via his Holy Ghost to show me truth.

This is what I discovered.
1) the KJV English words were broad in meaning just like the original Koine Greek and Hebrew words were broad in meaning. Context of the words establishes the meaning.
2) the KJV Bible is its own dictionary no other Bible has that.
3) the KJV Bible is the only one with a build in supernatural cross referencing system. this lets you cross reference words and phrases. Not found in any other Bible as a matter of fact it is lost in all translations
4) It has all the verses, phrases and words nothing is missing. All other translations are missing parts or whole verse and sections of scriptures. others drop word and change words to a singular meaning and lose the broad understanding.
5) The words used in the KJV reflect God's character, nature and holiness.

I am fully persuaded that the KJV is divinely preserved and even at times God had to inspire the translators to either keep an older word and transliterate or translate it. Roms 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

i.e. the name of Jesus for example. It is found 942 times in the Bible, 935 of those times it is the transliterated koine Greek word "Iesous". That leaves us with 7 times it comes from a source other that the Koine Greek word Iesous.

Next we search and find that Five times the word Jesus is added by the translators so that the understanding and flow of the English is not lost in the translation of the verses from the Texus Receptus, some of which go back to the time of the Apostles. We know that it was added to the text because Jesus is found 5 times to be Italicized. They italicized all the words they added to the text for clearer translation and flow of the English so we would know what was added.

Now that leaves us with two uses that were not Iesous or added. Upon discovery we find that these two times Jesus is translated from the Koine Greek word "autos". It usually means "man" but in the Greek it was alright if you knew Koine Greek it would have flowed properly but when translated literally it did not make sense as to who it was speaking of so in these cases of Christ they translated it Jesus from the word autos. These last two acts of translating by adding the name Jesus, and translating autos to the name Jesus is what we call "inspired or inspiration" as they had to ask God for direction to best keep the translation true.

God was guiding to preserve his word as he promised in Psalm 12:6, 7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

BTW, Koine Greek is a dead language and no one knows how it was spoken. ALL of the Greek tools used today and for the last 300 plus years are actually based on Classical Greek and there is no way to check the classical Greek to Koine because there is no dictionary for Koine Greek. Strong's Greek is actually classical Greek meanings to Koine Greek words.

The issue of preservation is one of faith more than all else. If God did preserve it and you as a christian believe he kept his word then it is up to you to find it and use it. I guarantee you he did not preserve it in a plethora of versions. there will be only one. I know that seems impossible for men to achieve but remember what is impossible for man is possible for God.
Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mr 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
Mr 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

findingyahsway · (This post was last modified: 05-16-2012 08:56 AM by findingyahsway.)

Here is a good explanation as to why the KJV is the best way to START reading the bible. Understanding the Word of God takes much study meditation and prayer.

And then with the Spirit of Truth well.. HalleluYah

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-16-2012, 02:28 PM

Thank you for the responses so far.

1. First off, you mention Latin Vulgate...I do believe that is the canonized version for the roman catholic church where they imported all the romanized input from my research so that's not uplifting to me in any way.

2. You said who cares about the motivation of james in taking the task to hand...weird there. Everyone has a motivation of some sort.

3. Pious scribes were used of course...glad you believe that. I don't.

4. I would think that the find of the dead sea scrolls would mean something...I guess I'm wrong about that.

5. Psalm 12:6, 7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever...

This is kinda funny because of this...

Amos 8:11-12
“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God,
“That I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine of bread,
Nor a thirst for water,
But of hearing the words of the Lord.
They shall wander from sea to sea,
And from north to east;
They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord,
But shall not find it.

I mean..that tells me that the word is gonna get hard to find...Contradiction there a little maybe? Unless of course you decide that your choice to use psalms was because you didn't notice the use of the word "generation" there...implying of course only 1 generation. Not to mention where he was going to preserve and what he was going to preserve for that generation..you can only assume that it's referring to what was his word at that time was which of course was only the Torah. Interesting...

6. The canon used by the kjv is completely made by the catholics for the message they wanted to be taught...so no difference there at all. It's funny how the eastern countries had a different...more complete canon. Also, the canon is the collection of books/scrolls included in the volume...in this case the kjv.

7. I have got down and asked the being if I could find out more about him...and I have. I was lucky enough to involve myself with the dead sea scrolls, and how lucky I was to do that...talk about a wake up call!

It seems that the dead sea scrolls disagree with christianity completely and to me the kjv is about as bad of a translation as it gets..but then again I can translate hebrew pretty well so of course I realize whats wrong with the kjv.

If you want to learn more of what the dead sea scrolls are and what message they clarify I suggest you do some research using Robert Eisenmen's material. He was the one who spearheaded the release of the dead sea scrolls to the public. It is quite known what changes were made and why. He has written quite a few books on the scrolls. Probably his most famous is "James, the brother of Jesus".

Thanks again for the responses.

Chin Music · (This post was last modified: 05-23-2012 04:42 PM by Chin Music.)

The enemy has polluted the bible landscape as well as the church landscape. Gods truth comes through even though the tares have been sowed in with the wheat. The English language is weak when compared to Hebrew or Greek but the creator of all things can use it to get His message to man. Because the Lord spread the message throughout the bible one could randomly tear pages out and the message would still exist.

Romans 10:9 (KJV)
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
(9) that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (NIV)
(9) That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (ISV)
(9) So if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I am not saying one bible is better or one is worse. I am aware of most of the controversies. What I do is trust the Holy Spirit to guide me in all things. In the four English translations above any man, should he choose to act, can be saved. From there I can trust the Holy Spirit to lead that saved one to truth.

Did you ever noticed that Paul would plant a new church and after a short time he would leave it without putting anyone in charge? Why? Because he trusted the Holy Spirit to care for it and nurture it. Did some of them have problems (thank God)? Yes, they did but it got straightened out and it gave us letters rich in understanding.

People, nothing in this realm is perfect. I will never have perfect and full understanding while I am clothed in this flesh. I do have a statement John made that I look forward to ....

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
(2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV)
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 John 3:2 (NIV)
(2) Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is

1 John 3:2 (ISV)
(2) Dear friends, we are now God’s children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when Christ is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.

The arguments are unfruitful in my book.

Addition to original ....

I found this comment on youtube where a discussion of the accuracy of the bible was being bandied about. I am not making a case for the NIV or any translation but just undergirding my point a bit

It's all based on your personal faith that God sent His only begotten son as messiah to pay the ransom for the sins of all mankind. I have studied it extensively and to me it's not a waste of time at all. I do believe that since the KJV version there has been a lot of other versions that do misquote and take things out of context because the grammar is changed, especially in the modern NIV version. I got saved reading a NIV version, so overall I don't think it's a bad translation.
WoodstocKenny 1 month ago

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-24-2012, 01:09 PM

(05-23-2012 02:45 PM)Chin Music Wrote: The enemy has polluted the bible landscape as well as the church landscape. Gods truth comes through even though the tares have been sowed in with the wheat. The English language is weak when compared to Hebrew or Greek but the creator of all things can use it to get His message to man. Because the Lord spread the message throughout the bible one could randomly tear pages out and the message would still exist.

Romans 10:9 (KJV)
(9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
(9) that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (NIV)
(9) That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (ISV)
(9) So if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I am not saying one bible is better or one is worse. I am aware of most of the controversies. What I do is trust the Holy Spirit to guide me in all things. In the four English translations above any man, should he choose to act, can be saved. From there I can trust the Holy Spirit to lead that saved one to truth.

Did you ever noticed that Paul would plant a new church and after a short time he would leave it without putting anyone in charge? Why? Because he trusted the Holy Spirit to care for it and nurture it. Did some of them have problems (thank God)? Yes, they did but it got straightened out and it gave us letters rich in understanding.

People, nothing in this realm is perfect. I will never have perfect and full understanding while I am clothed in this flesh. I do have a statement John made that I look forward to ....

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
(2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 (NKJV)
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 John 3:2 (NIV)
(2) Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is

1 John 3:2 (ISV)
(2) Dear friends, we are now God’s children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when Christ is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.

The arguments are unfruitful in my book.

Addition to original ....

I found this comment on youtube where a discussion of the accuracy of the bible was being bandied about. I am not making a case for the NIV or any translation but just undergirding my point a bit

It's all based on your personal faith that God sent His only begotten son as messiah to pay the ransom for the sins of all mankind. I have studied it extensively and to me it's not a waste of time at all. I do believe that since the KJV version there has been a lot of other versions that do misquote and take things out of context because the grammar is changed, especially in the modern NIV version. I got saved reading a NIV version, so overall I don't think it's a bad translation.
WoodstocKenny 1 month ago

I think I understand the point you're making here. I agree with you to a point. However, my original point was slightly different in meaning than most are taking here. I'll explain a bit.

First, I do not believe the "bible" is the creator's "words" or instructions for us to live from exactly. I cannot accept any book or scroll that was added without knowing where or when or from who it came from. To me this is rediculous....but it's been done over, and over, and over within the bible. I'm not saying that the whole bible is wrong...just saying that there's a bunch of extra opinions in there. This is WELL documented.

We KNOW that books are added...we KNOW that there were very divergent forces at work in the early church. Two opposing sides were well documented on both sides. One side won which began christianity..and one side lost. This is documented in 5 different 1st century manuscripts/scrolls. Some of which are held by the vatican. However, they exist and we know it now, and have access to them.

Second, you cannot even verify that the gospels included in the current accepted canon are written by who they say they were. Again...this is well documented that no one knows. The book of hebrews, and all peter's books are understood to be written by unknown sources also. That's right...no one knows who wrote 1 and 2 peter...they know it was done by someone other than peter and probably after peter was dead. This information is suppresed by the church...but it's out there for people that search records and history. There are also books in the old testament that are also unknown..but i'm sticking to beating up the new testament.

Third, it is very clear that the 12 apostles together wrote and used the "gospel of the hebrews" ONLY to teach with. Ever hear of that? Probably not...it's suppresed information by the church. Why you ask? Because it is known that the apostle's lost the conflict and the other force won "christianity" while the apostles and their followers were killed out and basically decimated by the romans. All this is verified information...all you have to do is go to the sources and look instead of listening to the garbage spilled out from seminaries and pastors who don't know anything but regurgitated information meant to cover the truth and make $$$$$, and control society.

I would go further but...who really wants to hear the truth? Christian's have their bible and sweet blissful ignorant teachers.

One bit of info extra...no charge.
Gospel of the hebrews
Gospel of the ebionites
Gospel of the nazarenes
There's your losers there.

Chin Music · 05-24-2012, 05:15 PM

Natsarim,

You said ....
all you have to do is go to the sources and look instead of listening to the garbage spilled out from seminaries and pastors who don't know anything but regurgitated information meant to cover the truth and make $$$$$, and control society.

I would go further but...who really wants to hear the truth? Christian's have their bible and sweet blissful ignorant teachers.

I agree with much of what you are saying here .... I have been saved 35 years. I spent the first 5 within the institutional church and lets just say I eventually saw it for what it is. I have studied the scriptures alone for the last 30 and see no need to return to a manipulated system. You are free to believe what you wish and I did not write to change you. I have found scripture to be the only solid foundation that resides in this realm. Yes I am a Christian but not one like you have described. I don't know many Christians who believe as I do but there are some.

Peace

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-24-2012, 06:09 PM

(05-24-2012 05:15 PM)Chin Music Wrote: Natsarim,

You said ....
all you have to do is go to the sources and look instead of listening to the garbage spilled out from seminaries and pastors who don't know anything but regurgitated information meant to cover the truth and make $$$$$, and control society.

I would go further but...who really wants to hear the truth? Christian's have their bible and sweet blissful ignorant teachers.

I agree with much of what you are saying here .... I have been saved 35 years. I spent the first 5 within the institutional church and lets just say I eventually saw it for what it is. I have studied the scriptures alone for the last 30 and see no need to return to a manipulated system. You are free to believe what you wish and I did not write to change you. I have found scripture to be the only solid foundation that resides in this realm. Yes I am a Christian but not one like you have described. I don't know many Christians who believe as I do but there are some.

Peace

I didn't really direct my whole reply just to you. I understand that there is a wide variety of christians. I dont mean to put you in a vice there. I only know that the entire bible is not valid, and I do not like christians basically misleading everyone to think that it(bible) is verified. I do this everywhere I go and tell everyone I can get to listen.

That's why there is so many variations of christianity. Denomination crazy!

I was a christian for 25 years before I finally got tired of the questions that no one could answer...or..the answers I got were flat out not true (speaking of my father the baptist preacher here).

It is understood by alot fo jewish families...which I know very well btw...that there is a vast amount of knowledge unknown by christians that pertains to the events around the turn of the century. A ton more is known than what is admitted to be known by christian teachings. That's why I studied the dead sea scrolls. That is the biggest discovery in the last 2000 years and christianity doesn't want anyone to know about them so they downplay them or just flat out mislead about them. Why? Because the dead sea scrolls belonged to the original apostles and their assemblies that's why. They tell about the struggle they had with the apostate's teachings, and how they died in the struggle against that force.

It is a tragedy of epic proportions, and hardly anyone cares about it at all.

Alot of this information has only been available for about 15 years so I would be shocked if you have ever seen it...mostly because of christianity fighting the information on the backside. However, the information is there for the taking.

Also do not think that this information is limited to the dead sea scrolls...there is many verifiable books and scrolls to back every bit of them..their find just verified what already existed. All you need to do is search for the origins of christianity. It's pretty blatant.

Again everything I am saying is just what Robert Eisenman has discovered and backed completely by many museums and jewish organizations that have read the scrolls also. All you have to do is have a itch concerning the origins of what you believe. The information is avilable.

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-24-2012, 06:19 PM

Also Chin

What do you believe that different?

Chin Music · 05-24-2012, 08:35 PM

(05-24-2012 06:19 PM)Natsarim Wrote: Also Chin
What do you believe that different?

I will try to stay simplistic in answer for I don't want to drone on. I don't believe in a hierarchy where one man is above another. We see this in all institutional settings. A good example is the Baptist one you were in. I do believe God calls men to be a pastor or deacon etc. but it's not a paid position or one that gives him authority over another. If a man feels he is called to such a position then just do the work. He doesn't need to be called pastor so and so (this causes puffing up) or anything else. If he is answering a call by God then his service is unto God by SERVING the body. The body doesn't serve him although in the institutional church this is what we have.

As for meetings they should be small and confined to houses. The brethren in these meetings should ALL be interacting not sitting in some pew staring at the back of someone’s head while being entertained by a bunch of people on stage. Now that is ridiculous.

What are the boundaries of the church .... well by N.T. standards it is the city limits. To the CHURCH (singular) at Ephesus .... to the CHURCH (singular) at Corinth .... to the CHURCH (singular) at Smyrna. These are all cities and many letters were addressed to a singular church not churches.

Well that brings up the argument of what about ….

1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV)
(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the CHURCHES (plural) of Galatia, even so do ye.

…. And what about ….

Revelation 1:4 (KJV)
(4) John to the seven CHURCHES (plural) which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

One can look at maps in the back of most bibles and see that Galatia and Asia were regions that contained cities and in some of those cities were the church. So when a region was addressed it was plural (all churches in that region). The church is so far from it’s organic roots it resembles nothing of the early church and thus we have the manipulated mess that exists. This is what you see on the surface but there is a swelling move of God that is away from this man made religion and back to what once was. The parable of the mustard seed (Matt. 13:31) speaks of this phenomena of the church condition in the last days. Watchman Nee spoke of the church boundary in “The Normal Christian Life”. Frank Viola speaks about it in his writing called “Rethinking the Wineskin”.

I could go on and on but enough is enough. I am not trying to convince anyone I am right. The work of the Holy Spirit is the one who leads men into all truth if they are willing to allow Him to lead.

Oh, and by the way Natsarim I just want to let you know you didn't offend me in your earlier statement. I was just letting you know that I am not quite of the standard belief system. Do I believe they are part of the body of Christ .... If they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior as outlined in Romans 10:9 then YES they are my brethren. Do I go around to corner churches and try to convince them of what I shared here? No. I leave them to the Holy Spirit to lead them out .... and He is.

Grace & Peace

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-24-2012, 10:44 PM

(05-24-2012 08:35 PM)Chin Music Wrote:
(05-24-2012 06:19 PM)Natsarim Wrote: Also Chin
What do you believe that different?

I will try to stay simplistic in answer for I don't want to drone on. I don't believe in a hierarchy where one man is above another. We see this in all institutional settings. A good example is the Baptist one you were in. I do believe God calls men to be a pastor or deacon etc. but it's not a paid position or one that gives him authority over another. If a man feels he is called to such a position then just do the work. He doesn't need to be called pastor so and so (this causes puffing up) or anything else. If he is answering a call by God then his service is unto God by SERVING the body. The body doesn't serve him although in the institutional church this is what we have.

As for meetings they should be small and confined to houses. The brethren in these meetings should ALL be interacting not sitting in some pew staring at the back of someone’s head while being entertained by a bunch of people on stage. Now that is ridiculous.

What are the boundaries of the church .... well by N.T. standards it is the city limits. To the CHURCH (singular) at Ephesus .... to the CHURCH (singular) at Corinth .... to the CHURCH (singular) at Smyrna. These are all cities and many letters were addressed to a singular church not churches.

Well that brings up the argument of what about ….

1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV)
(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the CHURCHES (plural) of Galatia, even so do ye.

…. And what about ….

Revelation 1:4 (KJV)
(4) John to the seven CHURCHES (plural) which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

One can look at maps in the back of most bibles and see that Galatia and Asia were regions that contained cities and in some of those cities were the church. So when a region was addressed it was plural (all churches in that region). The church is so far from it’s organic roots it resembles nothing of the early church and thus we have the manipulated mess that exists. This is what you see on the surface but there is a swelling move of God that is away from this man made religion and back to what once was. The parable of the mustard seed (Matt. 13:31) speaks of this phenomena of the church condition in the last days. Watchman Nee spoke of the church boundary in “The Normal Christian Life”. Frank Viola speaks about it in his writing called “Rethinking the Wineskin”.

I could go on and on but enough is enough. I am not trying to convince anyone I am right. The work of the Holy Spirit is the one who leads men into all truth if they are willing to allow Him to lead.

Oh, and by the way Natsarim I just want to let you know you didn't offend me in your earlier statement. I was just letting you know that I am not quite of the standard belief system. Do I believe they are part of the body of Christ .... If they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior as outlined in Romans 10:9 then YES they are my brethren. Do I go around to corner churches and try to convince them of what I shared here? No. I leave them to the Holy Spirit to lead them out .... and He is.

Grace & Peace

Grace and Peace to you too

I do agree with the small groups and everyone taking part for sure. Nothing can get done in large groups and mob mentality soon takes over.

I also think you are absolutely correct about one person not being over another. That's one of my big problems with churches.

Viper_99 · 05-28-2012, 12:06 PM

Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Acts 2:45-47

1 Corinthians 11:34
Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

Acts 5:12
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

I had a good role model in the Christian life and he once told me he would not listen to people would did not belong to and were held accountable to a group of believers. This has always stuck with me and I think it is good counsel. Christian are meant to be together to work out their faith and be held accountable. If a believer can't do that, it often leads to far out theories and hearts that are far from God. Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. I encourage you to meet and be apart of a local group of believers.

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-28-2012, 11:12 PM

(05-28-2012 12:06 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Acts 2:45-47

1 Corinthians 11:34
Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

Acts 5:12
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

I had a good role model in the Christian life and he once told me he would not listen to people would did not belong to and were held accountable to a group of believers. This has always stuck with me and I think it is good counsel. Christian are meant to be together to work out their faith and be held accountable. If a believer can't do that, it often leads to far out theories and hearts that are far from God. Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. I encourage you to meet and be apart of a local group of believers.

No thanks, I'll not follow any apostate christian teaching. Please do not mingle the scroll of Mishle with those born from apostate teaching.

I am a Yisra'elite sir. I have plenty of fellow followers of The Way to surround myself with. We try our best to remain clean to be closer to our Father. This is what I need in this life. There is nothing but to be close to The Father...nothing. To be close to Him we must be clean. His qodesh Scripture the Torah provides us with the directions needed for this.

I would advise you to do research on the foundations of your beliefs. Your apostate faith has nothing to do with the qodesh YaHuSha Ha Mashiach. You can have your jesus christ all you want. The apostate title and name will not escape my lips as we are commanded in the Torah. I am only here to instruct others concerning the apostasy present in the world.

Remember your scripture from MattithYaHu. Till heaven and earth pass not one jot...The Torah will be completed. I hope you will join us in receiving His mark. The directions concerning this is in Hazon three different times.

Shalom to you brother. It's time to define the entirety of babylon and come out of her. It is time to wake up from the apostasy.

Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 05-29-2012 12:54 PM by Viper_99.)

(05-28-2012 11:12 PM)Natsarim Wrote:
(05-28-2012 12:06 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Acts 2:45-47

1 Corinthians 11:34
Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

Acts 5:12
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

I had a good role model in the Christian life and he once told me he would not listen to people would did not belong to and were held accountable to a group of believers. This has always stuck with me and I think it is good counsel. Christian are meant to be together to work out their faith and be held accountable. If a believer can't do that, it often leads to far out theories and hearts that are far from God. Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. I encourage you to meet and be apart of a local group of believers.

No thanks, I'll not follow any apostate christian teaching. Please do not mingle the scroll of Mishle with those born from apostate teaching.

I am a Yisra'elite sir. I have plenty of fellow followers of The Way to surround myself with. We try our best to remain clean to be closer to our Father. This is what I need in this life. There is nothing but to be close to The Father...nothing. To be close to Him we must be clean. His qodesh Scripture the Torah provides us with the directions needed for this.

I would advise you to do research on the foundations of your beliefs. Your apostate faith has nothing to do with the qodesh YaHuSha Ha Mashiach. You can have your jesus christ all you want. The apostate title and name will not escape my lips as we are commanded in the Torah. I am only here to instruct others concerning the apostasy present in the world.

Remember your scripture from MattithYaHu. Till heaven and earth pass not one jot...The Torah will be completed. I hope you will join us in receiving His mark. The directions concerning this is in Hazon three different times.

Shalom to you brother. It's time to define the entirety of babylon and come out of her. It is time to wake up from the apostasy.

Sorry Natsarim, I thought you were a Christian not Jewish. My comments are for Christians, I did not understand from the posts that you are a practicing Jew and have your own faith. I apologize if I offended you.

However, my advice was to help a Christian to grow which is the only reason I poke around on this side of the forum. I have no interest in debating obscure philosophies but instead want to help people grow in their Christian faith. You can give me a negative comment for trying to help I do not mind. Perhaps, I should stay out of this side of the forum because it doesn't seem to be about growth or real life questions.

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:13-15

I realize this verse has no meaning to you but for me it guides my life.

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-29-2012, 12:27 PM

(05-29-2012 10:47 AM)Viper_99 Wrote:
(05-28-2012 11:12 PM)Natsarim Wrote:
(05-28-2012 12:06 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Acts 2:45-47

1 Corinthians 11:34
Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. And when I come I will give further directions.

Acts 5:12
The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

I had a good role model in the Christian life and he once told me he would not listen to people would did not belong to and were held accountable to a group of believers. This has always stuck with me and I think it is good counsel. Christian are meant to be together to work out their faith and be held accountable. If a believer can't do that, it often leads to far out theories and hearts that are far from God. Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. I encourage you to meet and be apart of a local group of believers.

No thanks, I'll not follow any apostate christian teaching. Please do not mingle the scroll of Mishle with those born from apostate teaching.

I am a Yisra'elite sir. I have plenty of fellow followers of The Way to surround myself with. We try our best to remain clean to be closer to our Father. This is what I need in this life. There is nothing but to be close to The Father...nothing. To be close to Him we must be clean. His qodesh Scripture the Torah provides us with the directions needed for this.

I would advise you to do research on the foundations of your beliefs. Your apostate faith has nothing to do with the qodesh YaHuSha Ha Mashiach. You can have your jesus christ all you want. The apostate title and name will not escape my lips as we are commanded in the Torah. I am only here to instruct others concerning the apostasy present in the world.

Remember your scripture from MattithYaHu. Till heaven and earth pass not one jot...The Torah will be completed. I hope you will join us in receiving His mark. The directions concerning this is in Hazon three different times.

Shalom to you brother. It's time to define the entirety of babylon and come out of her. It is time to wake up from the apostasy.

Sorry Natsarim, I thought you were a Christian not Jewish. My comments are for Christians, I did not understand from the posts that you are a practicing Jew and have your own faith. I apologize if I offended you.

However, my advice was to help a Christian to grow which is the only reason I poke around on this side of the forum. I have no interest in debating obscure philosophies but instead want to help people grow in their Christian faith. You can give me a negative comment for trying to help I do not mind. Perhaps, I should stay out of this side of the forum because it doesn't seem to be about growth or real life questions.

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:13-15

I realize this verse has not meaning to you but for me it guides my life.

Well...I appreciate your apology.

However, please do not refer to me as being "jewish". That term is reserved for those who are of 1 tribe, and 1 tribe only. I am Nazarene Yisra'elite sir, or Natsarim as the Hebrew language goes.

I'll say to you that your thoughts concerning me are wrong. I'm not being coy or putting words in your mouth. This comes from years of experience of dealing with christians. I know what christians think of my people, because I know your faith's teachings. To us who follow the Messiah christianity is apostate because of the war that went on between shaul and the apostles of our Messiah after his death, and what shaul and his cronies did to win and establish the religion which is known as christianity.

Just because you do not know this does not make it the absolute TRUTH. It is verified FACT that these occurences happened. All you have to do again is research your religion's origin.

Viper_99 · 05-29-2012, 01:09 PM

Natsarim is this what you believe?

Building On Truth By Avoiding Rabbinic Errors.

BYSW Conference Monday April 17th 11AM
A Comparison Between Traditional Judaism
& Nazarene Yisraelite Faith
By Rabbi/Brother Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky

Most Bible believers aware that the Jewish people today are not biblical disciples or followers in the purest sense. Unbelieving Jews who have not come to personal faith in Messiah Yahshua are traditional Jews who live by rabbinical halachah and tradition as opposed to both Torah's (First and Renewed) given to man. Either by choice or through ignorance they often have chosen the traditions of the rabbis over the Word of YHWH, when the two sometimes contradict. Below you will find a brief but interesting comparison between the traditional views held by the Jewish masses and those held by the chosen faithful remnant of Nazarene Yisrael.
Issue #1: Belief in Yahuwah's Word As The Sole Authority For Life

Traditional Jews say: Some Jewish sects believe in divine inspiration of Scripture, but others do not.

Biblical Messianic Nazarene Yisraelites say: Both the Tanach (Old) and Brit Chadasha (new) covenants are divinely inspired and alone are the basis for obedience to Yahuwah.
Issue #2: Blood Atonement

Traditional Jews say: Not necessary. Referred to as "tshuva, tzedakah and tefillah in Hebrew."

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Blood atonement in both covenants is essential to remission and forgiveness of sin without which no man can enter Yahuwah's holy presence.
Issue #3: Old Testament (Tanach)

Traditional Jews say: Some sects believe in its entirety. Others believe in none of it, and still others believe only in the first five books of Moshe.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Believe that genesis to Malachi is inerrant and eternal.

Issue #4: New Testament (Brit Chadasha)

Traditional Jews say: It is fictitious at best and anti-Semitic at worst and is responsible for atrocities done to the Jewish people.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: It is as much the Davar Yahuwah as is the Tanach. It is the second part of Yahuwah's complete revelation to humanity.
Issue #5: Oral Law (Torah she-be-al peh)

Traditional Jews say: It is central to Jewish belief and lifestyles, giving us halachah (ways to walk) before Yahuwah. Without the Oral Law traditional Judaism would cease to exist.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Talmud is rejected as divine revelation, but respected as a great historical work of mans wisdom that can add insight to understanding scripture.
Issue # 6: The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Traditional Jews say: We profess it as the bedrock and pillar of Jewish faith. The traditional view is that the Shema proves that Yahuwah is an "absolute unity, and not a trinity."

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Profess that the bedrock and pillar of Jewish faith. The word echad in the Shema is written by Moshe Rabainu with the clear intention o f teaching the true compound nature of the one Yahuwah.
Issue # 7: The Torah

Traditional Jews say: The Torah is the primary focus of Life. They try to fulfill Torah through personal striving, personal fulfillment and good deeds.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: The Torah is the instruction manual for the redeemed community of Yahuwah. Torah observance is a byproduct of a spirit filled and directed life. All attempts to perform Torah outside the born again experience is doomed to failure,

Issue #8: Ephraimites

Traditional Jews say: All non-Jews are automatically pagans or unclean Gentiles.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Humans fall into three groups. Unsaved traditional Jews, unsaved Gentiles and the kehilah of Yahshua composed of saved Jews Ephraimites and friends.
Issue # 9: Two Messiah Theory

Traditional Jews say: Most conservative attire and orthodox Jews believe that scripture teaches two separate Messiah's. One suffers as Messiah Ben Joseph (suffering Messiah), and one is the eternal reigning kind,(Messiah son of David). Reform Judaism rejects the concept of a literal and personal Messiah instead of adopting the hope of a future Messianic age.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Messiah is only one person not two. Yahshua is that Messiah. He has come to suffer and fulfill all the suffering servant Messianic passages over three hundred, and will return to rule the world from Jerusalem upon David's throne. Reject the idea of two Messiahs as fallacious.
Issue # 10: The Virgin Birth

Traditional Jews say: This is a pagan concept totally unbiblical that has in various Greek and pagan cultures in different forms and variations. Adopted by Messianic Jews from paganism. Yahshua was an illegitimate child according to Talmud.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: believe that Messiah's virgin birth is biblical as found and prophesied in Isaiah &: 14 and Jeremiah 31:22. Without the virgin birth Yahshua's blood would have been tainted by sin through the agency of a human father, therefore disqualifying him from shedding of blood for mankind.

Issue # 11: Good Deeds

Traditional Jews say: This is an individuals' stairway to heaven. Combined with prayer and repentance they lead to eternal righteousness.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: All of man's attempts at good deeds are filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Only Yahshua's blood atonement entitles entry into life eternal.

Issue # 12: Deity of Moshiach

Traditional Jews say: Impossible that YHWH can be come a man. See that as a pagan view and those who believe that as pagans. See it as another manifestation of Greek mythology.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: Without the scriptural belief ion the deity/divinity of Messiah thus making his blood kadosh and not that of a mere man one cannot live forever nor have the forgiveness of sins. To us it is a no compromise issue and those who deny Yahshua as YHWH are not saved according to Yahshua’s own teachings (John 8:24) and remain pagans.

Issue # 13: Calendar

Traditional Jews say: The calendar is correct with Rosh Hashanna being the New Year. They add second days to such single day events as Passover, Shavuot/Pentecost and Trumpets.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: The Hebraic solar-lunar calendar determined by the 2 heavenly witnesses is correct (Genesis 1;14), which anyone can learn to read.

Issue # 14: Tzitzit-Fringes
Traditional Jews say: Only men can wear them. Some wear them in others out of the pants.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: See the children of Yisrael as containing both men and women and thus both can wear tzitzit.

Issue # 15: Kashrut/Keeping Kosher
Traditional Jews say: All meats and such must be bought and approved by a kosher butcher and rabbi.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: As long as meats and foods are chosen from the menu as outlined in the Torah and the blood is fully and completely drained it doesn’t matter if a rabbi blesses it or not, or if its bought from a kosher or non kosher butcher.

Issue # 16: Shabbat Goy

Traditional Jews say: It is permitted to hire a non Jew and allow him or her to work and serve and do things a Jew cannot do on Shabbat such as having him come in and mow the lawn or move furniture.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: The Torah is clear that no work is to be done within your gates and that would include non-Jews who desire or even don’t desire to keep Torah. You as the Torah observer must not allow any mundane work within your gates.

Issue #17: Lighting Lights on Shabbat and Moadim
Traditional Jews say: Turning and off lights and driving car with the ignition turned on is kindling a flame and thus forbidden by Torah.

Nazarene Yisraelites say: We a re forbidden to make a fire such as in cooking, but turning on a light or car requires no work or working to produce fire as it is instantaneous. We are fee to drive and to use lighting.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/misc/charts/...blical.php

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-29-2012, 01:37 PM

Not getting your point here.

Half of those are not accurate at all. Let me explain why.

The Karaites, Rabbinical, Ebionites, Nazarenes, and Essenes are just some of the various factions your "rabbi" is bleeding all together to try to make his list. The listing he makes can only influence those who do not understand that simple fact. I'd advise spending some time with history books and not web sites showing nothing but opinions.

A good book to start off with to define "The Way" is Dead Sea Scroll scholar Robert Eisenman's "James, the brother of Jesus". That is just one of many books available.

To note, I'd never refer to the Messiah by that pagan name, nor his brother. Just reciting the book's name.

Viper_99 · 05-29-2012, 08:43 PM

(05-29-2012 01:37 PM)Natsarim Wrote: Not getting your point here.

Half of those are not accurate at all. Let me explain why.

The Karaites, Rabbinical, Ebionites, Nazarenes, and Essenes are just some of the various factions your "rabbi" is bleeding all together to try to make his list. The listing he makes can only influence those who do not understand that simple fact. I'd advise spending some time with history books and not web sites showing nothing but opinions.

A good book to start off with to define "The Way" is Dead Sea Scroll scholar Robert Eisenman's "James, the brother of Jesus". That is just one of many books available.

To note, I'd never refer to the Messiah by that pagan name, nor his brother. Just reciting the book's name.

Thanks, I will check and see if our library has a copy of this book. I still have no idea what you believe but I will look into it.

~~Natsarim~~ · 05-29-2012, 10:11 PM

(05-29-2012 08:43 PM)Viper_99 Wrote:
(05-29-2012 01:37 PM)Natsarim Wrote: Not getting your point here.

Half of those are not accurate at all. Let me explain why.

The Karaites, Rabbinical, Ebionites, Nazarenes, and Essenes are just some of the various factions your "rabbi" is bleeding all together to try to make his list. The listing he makes can only influence those who do not understand that simple fact. I'd advise spending some time with history books and not web sites showing nothing but opinions.

A good book to start off with to define "The Way" is Dead Sea Scroll scholar Robert Eisenman's "James, the brother of Jesus". That is just one of many books available.

To note, I'd never refer to the Messiah by that pagan name, nor his brother. Just reciting the book's name.

Thanks, I will check and see if our library has a copy of this book. I still have no idea what you believe but I will look into it.

Glad to hear this! You will never regret your decision should you read that title. The key finding of the last 2000 years was the dead sea scrolls, and Eisenman was instrumental in releasing them to the public...took about 10 years and a couple law suits! This information is VITAL to investigate.

Shalom