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Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 02:01 PM by Viper_99.)

I was reading through the silver section today and noticed some had made a comment about that a one world government will not be set up until the rapture. This was very much my line of thinking as well until just lately. It is interesting to note that the notion of Christ return before the tribulation is a recent thought. The theory has only existed for about 120 years. Before this time all Christianss expected to go through the tribulation. Here are some note from my church's position: Written by Kris Duerksen

The Scriptures teach that the Rapture occurs at the END of the Tribulation: There are 5 main passages in Scripture which explicitly talk about the Rapture: (1) Matthew 24:29-31; (2) Mark 13:24-27; (3) 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; (4) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; (5) 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. A quick read through these 5 passages quickly reveals that NOT A SINGLE passage in Scripture describes the Rapture happening before the Tribulation. In fact, all of them clearly describe the Rapture happening towards the end of the Tribulation – after events which take place in the Tribulation.
 Scripture study of 5 key passages about the Rapture:
1. Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28: In these passages Jesus plainly describes the events of the Rapture and His 2nd Coming. 29”Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matt 24:29-31 (ESV)
 In verse 29 Jesus says “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . .” Which days is He talking about? The days which He just finished describing in verses 4-28. What days are described in verses 4-28? The days of the Great Tribulation! For example, verse 15 talks about the ‘abomination of desolation,’ an event which all scholars agree happens in the 2nd half of the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist sets himself up to be worshiped in God’s Temple (see Dan 9:27). What happens ‘after the tribulation of these days?’ Verses 30 & 31 describes Jesus 2nd Coming (‘they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory’) and the Rapture (angels gathering up the elect) happening at the same time.
 Mark 13 and Luke 21 tell the same story of the Rapture as Matthew 24:
a. But in those days, following that distress, “’the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26”At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. – Mk 13:24-27 (NIV) Again, see verse 24, Jesus doesn’t come back to ‘gather His elect’ (the Rapture) until ‘following that distress’ the distress of the Tribulation He just finished describing in verses 5 – 23 including the ‘abomination of desolation’ (committed by the Antichrist in the 2nd half of the Tribulation) in verse 15.

b. “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” – Lk 21:25-28 (NIV)
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: This is one of the clearest and most comprehensive passages of Scripture concerning the timing of the Rapture. Here are two excerpts: 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. . . . 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. Verses 1-4 & 8-10 (NIV)
a. In this passage Paul clearly says:
i) That believers being gathered to Jesus (the Rapture) and Jesus 2nd Coming to earth occur at the same time (verse 1). [Note: Pre-tribbers teach that these are two separate events.]
ii) That these two events (Rapture and 2nd Coming) will not happen until after the Antichrist has been revealed (verse 3) and has rebelled and overtly set himself up against God in the temple (verse 4).
 This shows that the Rapture of the saints happens towards the end of the Tribulation, since the Antichrist is not revealed until during the Tribulation and does not set himself up in God’s temple until the 2nd half of the Tribulation period (see Daniel 9:27).
b. There are only TWO comings of Jesus:
i) It is important to note that throughout Scripture these two events (1) the Rapture (believers getting their resurrected bodies and meeting Jesus in the sky); and (2) Jesus return to earth are described as happening at the same time. This is important because people who believe that Christians get Raptured before the Tribulation have to separate the two events: first, Jesus comes to Rapture all believers (secretly) and then, seven years later, Jesus comes back to earth to defeat the Antichrist at the end of the Tribulation. Instead of a 2nd Coming, pre-Trib defenders believe in a 2nd & 3rd Coming – once at the beginning of the Tribulation and once again at the end. The idea that Jesus comes back two more times is not supported in Scripture and, in fact, directly contradicts the apostle Peter in the following passage:
ii) Acts 3:19-21: Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. (NIV) In this passage, Peter states that Jesus must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything. Things are obviously not restored during the 7 years of the Tribulation – they will be worse than they have ever been before! So if Jesus left heaven to Rapture believers before the Tribulation started He would be leaving heaven before the time when God restores everything, which this passage says He will not do.

Silver07 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 11:20 AM by Silver07.)

Good write up! There will be NO rapture before the great tribulation. The King is coming 1 time.

You mentioned he is coming for the saints, or his people. Who are the saints?

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 01:52 PM by Viper_99.)

(06-12-2012 10:54 AM)Silver07 Wrote: Good write up! There will be NO rapture before the great tribulation. The King is coming 1 time.

You mentioned he is coming for the saints, or his people. Who are the saints?

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

Are you trying to define who are saints? My sheep know my voice and follow me! I think it is important for Christian to wake up and realize they are not getting out of the tribulation but are going through it for a witness of Jesus Christ. There will be a great falling away during the trib, these so called Christians that Jesus has made no impact on their life will be shaken to the core. When times get tough they will quickly fall away especially if being a Christian means economic hardship or persecution. Remember the Beast will be out to kill the Saints and the Jews.

Silver07 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 05:47 PM by Silver07.)

(06-12-2012 12:29 PM)Viper_99 Wrote:
(06-12-2012 10:54 AM)Silver07 Wrote: Good write up! There will be NO rapture before the great tribulation. The King is coming 1 time.

You mentioned he is coming for the saints, or his people. Who are the saints?

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

Are you trying to define who are saints? My sheep know my voice and follow me! I think it is important for Christian to wake up and realize they are not getting out of the tribulation but are going through it for a witness of Jesus Christ. There will be a great falling away during the trib, these so called Christians that Jesus has made no impact on their life will be shaken to the core. When times get tough they will quickly fall away especially if being a Christian means economic hardship or persecution. Remember the Beast will be out to kill the Saints and the Jews.

Yes, that verse tells you who the saints are.

His sheep are Israel:
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The voice his sheep hear is from the holy spirit and His spirit of truth. His covenant and holy spirit is given to his sheep:
Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

The spirit of truth:
Psalms 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

2 John 1:1-6
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You are correct in saying there will be a great falling away during the great tribulation for Christians. Mostly because Jesus is not coming back for Christians. He's coming for His people, which are His bride, sheep and saints: Israel. The ones who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This means all 10 commandments and the rest of Torah.

Revelation 22:14, 17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Chette · 06-12-2012, 08:11 PM

you both need to learn how to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

This verse tells you to study and how to study.

learn it or be confused. 1Cor 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Silver07 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 08:57 PM by Silver07.)

(06-12-2012 08:11 PM)Chette Wrote: you both need to learn how to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

This verse tells you to study and how to study.

learn it or be confused. 1Cor 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

This is how you respond to everyone here, interesting.

The bible and understanding God is really pretty simple. So much so even a child can understand:
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

The confusion comes from Western Roman-Greco Pastors with theologian degrees interpreting letters by authors with an Eastern hebraic perspective and thought.

But with all due respect, please continue with the watering down and diverting from the concrete thought and points made in this thread and many others here.

Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 09:44 PM by Viper_99.)

Silver07

Yes, that verse tells you who the saints are.

His sheep are Israel:
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The voice his sheep hear is from the holy spirit and His spirit of truth. His covenant and holy spirit is given to his sheep:
Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

The spirit of truth:
Psalms 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

2 John 1:1-6
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You are correct in saying there will be a great falling away during the great tribulation for Christians. Mostly because Jesus is not coming back for Christians. He's coming for His people, which are His bride, sheep and saints: Israel. The ones who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This means all 10 commandments and the rest of Torah.

Revelation 22:14, 17
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[/quote]

I'm not sure where you are going with this Silver07. This thread is about the tribulation but I think Acts is pretty clear. The gospel and gift of the Holy Spirit are for first the Jew and then the Gentile. Christians are going through the tribulation as are the Jewish people. We both will be persecuted and the Saints standing in the white robs in Revelation are the martyred Christians who die for holding on to their faith. Will many of them be Jewish, for sure many Jewish people will come to faith in Christ during the last days. Why, because the Christians go through the tribulation and truly become salt and light.

Viper_99 · 06-12-2012, 09:48 PM

(06-12-2012 08:11 PM)Chette Wrote: you both need to learn how to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

This verse tells you to study and how to study.

learn it or be confused. 1Cor 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I have no idea what your comment is about! The pastor who wrote the article is very accomplish Bible teacher and speaker. He hold Bible degrees and well as university degrees. If you do not agree with the article make a logical argument don't criticize someones knowledge of scripture.

Silver07 · 06-12-2012, 10:50 PM

(06-12-2012 09:43 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: I'm not sure where you are going with this Silver07. This thread is about the tribulation but I think Acts is pretty clear. The gospel and gift of the Holy Spirit are for first the Jew and then the Gentile. Christians are going through the tribulation as are the Jewish people. We both will be persecuted and the Saints standing in the white robs in Revelation are the martyred Christians who die for holding on to their faith. Will many of them be Jewish, for sure many Jewish people will come to faith in Christ during the last days. Why, because the Christians go through the tribulation and truly become salt and light.

I agree 100% with your no pretrib rapture, so there wasn't much more to comment on but to say good job, nice write up!

I guess where you may have a little confusion is who we've been told the modern day Jews are. The Jews of the bible were the remnant of Israel still keeping Torah. They are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel in the Tanakh or old covenant. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah. Paul or Saul was of the tribe of Benjamin:

Paul describing who he is in his letters:
Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee

2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Jesus came to his own. He has one people out of all the nations: Israel. And Israel is NOT the land mass setup in 1948 by the League of Nations under the Balfour agreement. The so called "Jews" there are Zionist Jews who follow the Babylonian Talmud and the Kabbala. They follow religion just like Christianity. The two work in tandem deceiving the masses.

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

For more info. on these Jews just follow the money and study the banking system and elite families.

Nobody can prove to be a Jew by blood in modern day. Even if they could, the covenant is spiritual not physical. The covenant and description of God's people are described in the scripture I posted above, so no need to go any further into it.

The facts are religion is a lie. The Most High didn't give us religion. It is a tool of the system, always has been. The bible speaks about one faith and one God. This is the faith of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, David, Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. The faith of the Hebrew Israelites. And Jesus was the Torah manifest in the flesh. We are called to follow in his path. (We already failed. That's where repentance and grace comes in).

The gentiles the bible refers to are the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The ones then and now, not living in grace and under the truth (his law) of Jesus. He didn't come to make us Christians, that was Rome's doing. Rome is still ruling, that's why Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

Sorry for the long post, I hope that clears some things up.

SilverSPUR · 06-13-2012, 09:31 AM

I am amazed at all the views here on the Post-Tribulational view and not one defender of the Pre-tribulational position. To defend the position here would be too lengthy of a discussion for this forum!

Let me just say, I do believe the Lord is coming back soon and my anticipation of His return is that of it being imminent (as it was with the Apostle Paul)! I don't agree with the assumption at the beginning of this thread that this is a "theory" and "new in the last 120 years". It is not a "theory" but a Biblical view I hold to be true. There is plenty evidence, and abundant evidence I might add, in Christian History to support this Biblical view! The saints will, "...be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...). (I Thess. 4:17b). The important thing is to Be prepared!!

The Lord Bless!!

Viper_99 · 06-13-2012, 10:34 AM

(06-13-2012 09:31 AM)SilverSPUR Wrote: I am amazed at all the views here on the Post-Tribulational view and not one defender of the Pre-tribulational position. To defend the position here would be too lengthy of a discussion for this forum!

Let me just say, I do believe the Lord is coming back soon and my anticipation of His return is that of it being imminent (as it was with the Apostle Paul)! I don't agree with the assumption at the beginning of this thread that this is a "theory" and "new in the last 120 years". It is not a "theory" but a Biblical view I hold to be true. There is plenty evidence, and abundant evidence I might add, in Christian History to support this Biblical view! The saints will, "...be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...). (I Thess. 4:17b). The important thing is to Be prepared!!

The Lord Bless!!

I would have believed just like you a few years ago. But the evidence in scripture is overwhelming supportive that Christians will go through the tribulation. But I will give some reasons for this notion of a new theory, once again this info is from Kris Duerksen my pastor.

The origin of the pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine.
 One thing many people don’t realize is that the doctrine of the pre-Tribulation Rapture is less than 200 years old and was never preached, in any branch of the church, before 1830. Although this doesn’t automatically make it wrong, we should be very cautious about any doctrine which first appears nearly 2000 years after the apostles and the early church fathers.
 John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was a leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” is the person who started the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Somewhere in the 1820’s he formed the idea that the Church would be raptured away before the start of the Tribulation, and he spent the rest of his life speaking, writing, traveling and spreading his new rapture theory. The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.
 The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among modern Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. Scofield’s Reference Bible became so popular that many of his beliefs (including the Pre-Trib Rapture) came to be accepted as Orthodox Christian teaching in many North American and British circles.
 Even Pre-Trib scholars don’t deny that the doctrine they espouse is new; in many cases they are proud of it (see below).Here are a number of quotes from Scholars (including pre-Trib advocates) of the past century confirming that the doctrine of the pre-Tribulation Rapture is ‘new’ (nowhere to be found in the early church) and started with John Darby in the 1820’s or 30’s:
1. F. F. Bruce: well known Plymouth Brethren historian and theologian says "Where did he [Darby] get it [speaking of the pre-Trib Rapture doctrine]? The reviewer’s answer would be that it was in the air in the 1820s and 1830s among eager students of unfulfilled prophecy" (Book Review of The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin in The Evangelical Quarterly, (Vol. XLVII, No. 1).
2. Alexander Reese: "About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ‘The Brethren’ or ‘Plymouth Brethren,’ founded by J. N. Darby” (Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, page 18).
3. Wayne Grudem: “Historic premillennialism believes that Christ will return after that tribulation, for the passage continues, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened….then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matt. 24:29-30). But, as explained above, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries a variety of premillennialism that holds to a pretribulational coming of Christ became popular” (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, pg 1132, Zondervan, 2000).
4. John Walvoord: One of the key scholars who has defended the pretrib rapture theory admits it started with John Darby and thinks it originated from Darby's understanding of ecclesiology: "any careful student of Darby soon discovers that he did not get his eschatological views from men, but rather from his doctrine of the church as the body of Christ, a concept no one claims was revealed supernaturally to Irving or Macdonald. Darby's views undoubtedly were gradually formed, but they were theologically and biblically based rather than derived from Irving's pre-Pentecostal group" (Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, p. 47.).
5. Robert Cameron: “Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down.... Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church - a doctrine that was never taught by a Father or Doctor of the Church in the past - that has no standard Commentator or Professor of the Greek language in any Theological School until the middle of the Nineteenth century, to give it approval, and that is without a friend, even to mention its name amongst the orthodox teachers or the heretical sects of Christendom - such a fatherless and motherless doctrine, when it rises to the front, demanding universal acceptance, ought to undergo careful scrutiny before it is admitted and tabulated as part of ‘the faith once for all delivered unto the saints” (Robert Cameron, Scriptural Truth About The Lord’s Return, page 72-73).
6. E. R. Sandeen: "Darby introduced into discussion at Powerscourt (1833) the ideas of a secret rapture of the church and of a parenthesis in prophetic fulfillment between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of Daniel. These two concepts constituted the basic tenets of the system of theology since referred to as dispensationalism" (E.R. Sandeen, The Roots of Fundamentalism 1800-1930, University of Chicago Press, 1970).
7. Philip Mauro: "The entire system of ‘dispensational teaching’ is modernistic in the strictest sense; for it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living; and was altogether unknown even in their younger days; It is more recent than Darwinism.”“A system of doctrine that contradicts what has been held and taught by every Christian expositor and every minister of Christ from the very beginning of the Christian era—suddenly made its appearance in the later part of the nineteenth century."
8. Edmund Shackleton: All who held the premillennial Coming of Christ were, till about sixty years ago, of one mind on the subject. About that time a new view was promulgated that the Coming of Christ was not one event, but that it was divided into stages, in fact, that Christ comes twice from heaven to earth, but the first time only as far as the air. This first descent, it is said, will be for the purpose of removing the Church from the world, and will occur before the Great Tribulation under Antichrist. This they call "The coming for His saints" or "Secret Rapture." The second part of the Coming is said to take place when Christ appears in glory and destroys the Antichrist. This they call "The coming with His saints." Apart from the test of the Word, which is the only final one, there are certain reasons why this doctrine should be viewed with suspicion. It appears to be little more than sixty years old; and it seems highly improbable that if scriptural it could have escaped the scrutiny of the many devoted Bible students whose writings have been preserved to us from the past. More especially in the writings of the early Christian fathers would we expect to find some notice of this doctrine, if it had been taught by the Apostles; but those who have their works declare that they betray no knowledge of a theory that the Church would escape the Tribulation under Antichrist, or that there would be any "coming" except that spoken of in Matthew 24, as occurring in manifest glory "after the Tribulation." This is all the more significant, because these writers bestowed much attention upon the subject of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation. Augustine, referring to Daniel 7, wrote: "But he who reads this passage even half asleep cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church." (Edmund Shackleton, Will the Church Escape the Great Tribulation? pp. 31, 32, cited by Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 231.)
9. Charles C. Ryrie: a dispensational theologian writes: "The distinction between Israel and the Church leads to the belief that the Church will be taken from the earth before the beginning of the tribulation (which in one major sense concerns Israel)" (Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, pp. 158-160). (That seems to fit with the theory that Darby originated the teaching based on his dispensational hermeneutic.)
10. Harry Ironside(4): In 1908 Ironside claimed Darby had rediscovered the apostolic teaching lost to the church: “Until brought to the fore through the writings and preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon through a period of sixteen hundred years” (Harry Ironside, The Mysteries Of God, 1908).
11. A. W. Tozer: “Here is a doctrine that was not known or taught until the beginning of this century and it is already causing splits in churches.” (from Man: the Dwelling Place of God – chapter 35, The Decline of Apocalyptic Expectation – the entire book is posted online at http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/to...0010.c.htm )
12. Corrie Ten Boom: “There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes, – to stand and not faint." I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next” (Corrie Ten Boom – 1974 quoted in “When Jesus Returns,” by David Pawson, p. 199).

To me this evidence is overwhelming and I not sure your refute it. Especially when it is so clearly documented. Some Christians want to close their eyes and run from the truth because the truth is not pleasant in this case. Modern day Christianity has taught us that God will take care of all our problems and he would never want to hurt us. The Bible never promises us this, it explains that Christ will be with us in our trials and will give us strength and wisdom when we will have to give account in persecution. We want to escape but Christ want us to be refined by persecution. We are going through the tribulation so it time to get ready and grow in our faith and character. Your faith is about to real!

SilverSPUR · 06-13-2012, 12:14 PM

Viper,

I have read all these quotes above before, many quoted for the sake of "proving" their own arguments from Post-Tribulationists as well as from those who promote a "Pre-Wrath" "theory" (similar to the post-trib view but who deal with the problems of the post-trib position as well as the amil. positional view). I even have several books from several of the authors mentioned above. I have spent years studying eschatology, as well as the Bible, and for me, the Scriptures are clear from my studies that there is a pre-tributional rapture of the church.

I can give to you my refutations of the above arguments. Time though is an issue for me. I have problems with the way post-tribulationists interpret many of the passages you quote above. I can give you examples of written records from the 2nd-5th centuries, as well as other Scholars from various other periods of time in Church history, as to the pre-tributional view (though none of these terms were used then as they are today with regards to "systematic theology"). But I am not wanting to "argue" here. Neither one of us will probably convince the other either way. I do believe there is far greater understanding of this doctrine today than ever before. This is perhaps because we are in the "last" of the "last days". That I do believe.

From reading your posts, I gather you care most about being a true believer, wanting to truly follow Christ and live your life for Him and being a good witness and testimony of your faith in Christ to the world! In this I am whole-heartedly in agreement with you. There are so few "real Christians" today who will stand up against sin and for the Truth and say, "I am a Christian and I live and serve Jesus Christ, my Savior and LORD!"

Let us both keep on studying, searching the Scriptures, and most importantly, becoming more and more like Christ!! The world sooo needs Christ!

Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 06-13-2012 12:30 PM by Viper_99.)

(06-13-2012 12:14 PM)SilverSPUR Wrote: Viper,

I have read all these quotes above before, many quoted for the sake of "proving" their own arguments from Post-Tribulationists as well as from those who promote a "Pre-Wrath" "theory" (similar to the post-trib view but who deal with the problems of the post-trib position as well as the amil. positional view). I even have several books from several of the authors mentioned above. I have spent years studying eschatology, as well as the Bible, and for me, the Scriptures are clear from my studies that there is a pre-tributional rapture of the church.

I can give to you my refutations of the above arguments. Time though is an issue for me. I have problems with the way post-tribulationists interpret many of the passages you quote above. I can give you examples of written records from the 2nd-5th centuries, as well as other Scholars from various other periods of time in Church history, as to the pre-tributional view (though none of these terms were used then as they are today with regards to "systematic theology"). But I am not wanting to "argue" here. Neither one of us will probably convince the other either way. I do believe there is far greater understanding of this doctrine today than ever before. This is perhaps because we are in the "last" of the "last days". That I do believe.

From reading your posts, I gather you care most about being a true believer, wanting to truly follow Christ and live your life for Him and being a good witness and testimony of your faith in Christ to the world! In this I am whole-heartedly in agreement with you. There are so few "real Christians" today who will stand up against sin and for the Truth and say, "I am a Christian and I live and serve Jesus Christ, my Savior and LORD!"

Let us both keep on studying, searching the Scriptures, and most importantly, becoming more and more like Christ!! The world sooo needs Christ!

I agree with you about growing in Christ and encouraging others to do so is the most important issue. When I was just new to the faith someone said to me "I am a pan-Tribber" I asked what that and he said, "it will all pan out in the end". Well I'm not that flippant about about it because I believe so many nominal Christian will lose their faith and follow the Anti-christ. (not a believer in saying a little prayer, live like a pagan and you're saved forever.) However, being pre or post trib will not save you! I love your comment about becoming more like Christ, that is what it is about!

Chin Music · 06-17-2012, 06:56 AM

I, like SilverSPUR, am in the pretrib camp .... I agree with the following write-up by Chuck Missler ....

The Great Snatch?

by Chuck Missler

We continue to receive many questions concerning the "Rapture of the Church" and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly represented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word harpazo, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." The Latin translators of the Bible used the word "rapturo," the root of the English term "Rapture." At the Rapture, living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time to join the Lord in the air.

There are many that still hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the "Second Coming" of Christ and the "Rapture" are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

There is also predicted an unparalleled "time of trouble" that Jesus called the "Great Tribulation."1 Many hold to the view that the Rapture of the church will occur after that specific period of time, thus, closely associating it with the Second Coming. This is known as the "post-tribulation" view.

Post-Tribulation Views

There are at least four distinct types of post-tribulational views:2

Classic post-tribulationism (J. Barton Payne, et al);
Semi-classic post-tribulation ism (Alexander Reese);
Futuristic post-tribulationism (George E. Ladd);
Dispensational post-tribulationism (Robert H. Gundry).

These differing views are based upon different approaches, presuppositions, and argumentation. In fact, they substantially contradict each other. As one insists on literalness, each of these views must embrace in creasing difficulties. Those of us who cling to a very literal view of the Scriptures believe that the church will be removed prior to the tribulation period (the "pre-tribulation" view). Why? What is the basis for this view?

The Pre-Tribulation View 3

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation coming" (1 Corinthians 15:51- 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's House (John 14:3). However, at Christ's Second Coming with His saints, He descends from heaven to set up His Messianic Kingdom on earth (Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:27-31). The differences between the two events are harmonized naturally by the "pre-trib" position, while other views are not able to account comfortably for such differences.

A New Testament Mystery

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Corinthians 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Colossians 1:26). The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Daniel 12:1-3; Zechariah 12:10; 14:4). In fact, the oldest prophecy uttered by a prophet was given before the flood of Noah and was of the Second Coming! It was given by Enoch, quoted in Jude 14-15.

The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven; at the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), while at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium4 if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?

While many diligent scholars disagree, most of their views derive from their presuppositions about the Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial pre-tribulation position. We encourage you to review the various passages yourself and develop your own conclusions. This is our "Blessed Hope," and you will not find a more exciting and rewarding discovery. This is just a brief overview of a complex subject, so apply 2 Timothy 2:15:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This topic is perhaps the most demanding from the point of view of requiring the greatest amount of integration of many portions of Scripture. Remember Acts 17:11:

"Receive the Word with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures daily to prove whether those things be so."
A more comprehensive treatment of some of these topics is included in our Expositional Commentaries on the book of Daniel and the Thessalonian epistles. And if you don't happen to hold our views, don't worry about it. We'll explain it to you on the way up! Incidentally, Enoch is a model. He was pre-flood, not mid-flood or post-flood!

For more information about these views, we encourage you to contact the Pre-Trib Research Center, 370 L'Enfant Promenade SW, Suite 801, Washington DC, 20024.

Viper_99 · 06-17-2012, 03:03 PM

Here is a rebuttal for your second point. I will only do one a time if you would like to respond that would be nice. It is easy to just say post tribbers have a problem with this and then not explain how it is problem.

1. The Dilemma: Many see a dilemma when looking at the Bible texts that talk about the timing of Jesus coming. On the one hand, there are many verses when Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour (Matt. 24:14, Mark 13:32-33), that He is coming at an hour His disciples do not expect (Matt. 24:44, 25:13, Luke 12:40), and like a thief in the night (Matt 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thess. 5:2, 2 Pet. 3:10). Therefore it is believed and announced by pre-Tribbers that Jesus could return suddenly, unexpectedly, at any moment (even this very second, while you are reading this). The term used by those who believe this doctrine is the ‘Imminence’ of Christ’s return. Pre-Trib proponents are so sure that the Bible teaches that Jesus could come back at any moment, that it is their biggest argument as to why the Post-Trib position is wrong, since the Post-Trib position obviously states that Jesus cannot come back until after the Tribulation.
 In contrast to the passages cited above, however, there are many passages that clearly tell us there are signs which must precede the second coming. These include the preaching of the gospel to all people groups and great revival (Matt. 24:14, Mark 13: 10, Rev. 7:9-17, Joel 2:28-29), the salvation of Israel (Matt. 23:39, Rom. 11:12,25-26), the beginnings of birth pangs and the great tribulation (Mark 13:7-8, 19-20, Matt. 24:15-22, Luke 21:20-24), the public appearance of the antichrist (the man of sin) who sets up the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15, 2 Thess. 2:3-4), the great apostasy or falling away from the faith (2 Thess. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1-2, 2 Tim. 4:3-4), the emergence and deception of many false prophets and false Christs (Mark 13:22, Matt. 24:23-24), as well as signs in the heavens and on the earth (Joel 2:30-32, Matt. 24: 29-30, Mark 13: 24-25, Luke 21:25-27). When these passages are considered, it is clear that Jesus cannot come back at any moment in time – He can only come back when these signs have all taken place.
 People who believe that the Rapture is Pre-Trib tend to focus their attention on the passages of Scripture that say we ‘cannot know the day or hour,’ while people (like us) who believe that the Rapture is Post-Trib, generally tend to focus their attention on the many passages which teach that Jesus’ Return and the Rapture can only happen in accordance with the signs – therefore Jesus cannot come back at any moment. Since the Bible is the infallible Word of God, no position that fails to take into account ALL the passages can possibly be right; we must find some way of reconciling both sets of passages.
2. How does one reconcile these two sets of passages? If signs must necessarily precede Jesus’ Second Coming, why does Jesus repeatedly say ‘you do not know the day or hour?’
 The Pre-Trib solution: The Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory has come up with a solution for this – there will be three comings of Jesus:4 His second coming will be a secret coming to Rapture the Church (secret in that the rest of the world will not see or hear Him), while His third coming will be the public, visible ‘Day of the Lord,’ which the Scripture talks so much about, when Christ returns to earth to judge the wicked, destroy the Antichrist, and set up His Millennium kingdom on earth. The way that this solves the dilemma of signs vs. imminence for Pre-Trib proponents, is that the Rapture (Jesus’ second coming) can then be said to be imminent (occur before any of the signs take place), whereas the Day of the Lord (Jesus’ third coming) will only happen after all the signs have occurred. In this way, Pre-Tribbers feel that they have solved the dilemma of how to reconcile the two sets of passages. As we have already seen, however, there are many problems with this view – here are five:
a) First, it’s not in the Bible. As has already been demonstrated, every Scripture passage which explicitly talks about the Rapture, describes it as happening after the Tribulation;
b) Secondly (as I will discuss in more detail below), not knowing the ‘day or hour’ of Jesus’ Return is not logically equivalent to saying that He could come back at any moment;
c) Thirdly (as I will show below), separating the Rapture from the Day of the Lord actually causes a contradiction within the Pre-Trib position; this contradiction demolishes the Pre-Trib view of Imminence, and deals a powerful blow to the very foundations of the doctrine itself;
d) Fourthly, there is no Scriptural support for a third coming of Christ. The testimony of the entire New Testament is that there are only two comings – the Day of the Lord and the Rapture of the Church must, therefore, both be part of Jesus’ Second Coming;
e) Lastly, in Matthew 24:3 the disciples asked what signs they could look for, that they might know when Jesus’ return was near. Most of vs. 4-31 describe events and clear signs to watch for that happen during the Great Tribulation; why would Jesus tell them all these signs to watch for if the church will not even be here to watch for them?
 We will now examine points b) and c) in more detail:
 Not knowing the ‘day or hour’ of Christ’s Return is not the same as saying He could return at any moment.
a) This idea that the Rapture could occur at-any-moment-without-warning has become so engrained in Western Christian thought that people have a hard time imagining anything else. But the truth of the matter is, that though Jesus several times said we cannot know the ‘day or hour’ of his return (Matt 24:36, 42, 44, 50, 25:13) He nowhere said that He could come back at any moment, without warning. The two statements are not the same.
b) Perhaps an illustration will help; no one today knows when man will set foot on Mars (maybe never, but follow along anyway). Not knowing when this could happen, however, does not mean it could happen at any time! Why? Because there are a number of important events which would have to happen first: massive amounts of government money would first need to be allocated to the project; a way-station of some kind would first have to be built outside of earth’s orbit for refueling the rocket; technological advances would first have to be made in rocketry and food biology (how will they feed the astronauts on that long trip?); special astronauts would first have to be chosen and trained, etc. etc. So, though it’s feasible that at some time in the future man will travel to Mars, we can rest assured that we’re not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find that it has happened. Why? These other steps would all have to happen first. Not knowing when something in the future will happen is not the same as saying it could happen at any time.
c) Pre-Tribbers are bothered by this point because they think that if the Rapture happens at the end of the Tribulation we can know the ‘day and hour’ of Jesus’ return. To this we respond – do we know when the Tribulation is going to start? No. So do we know the day or hour when Jesus is going to return? No. Therefore, Jesus was telling His disciples the truth when He said we don’t know the ‘day or hour’ of His return. But that’s a lot different than saying He could return at any moment, even before the signs which He said must precede His return.
d) Of course once the Tribulation actually begins, saints who are alive at that time will then have a pretty good idea, roughly, of the timing of Jesus’ return. This is one reason why pre-Tribbers feel so strongly that the post-Trib position is wrong. But the truth is that the pre-Trib doctrine doesn’t avoid this issue either, since they also teach that there will be believers on earth during the Tribulation – the only difference being that they believe the only Christians on earth during the Tribulation will be those who got saved after the Tribulation started. But in both cases (post and pre-Trib) there will be believers on earth during the Tribulation, and whoever those believers are, they will have a pretty good idea of when Jesus is going to return. Which is exactly what we should expect since Jesus told His disciples that we should know when His return was very near.
There is a huge contradiction which lies at the heart of the Pre-Trib position, with regards to their interpretation of Jesus’ statement ‘you cannot know the day or hour.’
a) To which day should Pre-Tribbers apply Jesus statements, ‘you cannot know the day or hour’ (Matt 24:36, 42, 44) – The Day of the Lord or the Rapture? When pre-Tribbers read Jesus’ statements in Matthew 24 that you cannot know ‘the day or hour’ of His Return, they automatically apply those passages to the day He’s going to Rapture us. But, remember, this is not an assumption they can automatically make since they believe that there are two separate days in the future when Jesus will return to earth – the Rapture and the Day of the Lord.
b) So which day was Jesus referring to? As a result of their belief in 2 separate, future returns of Christ, Pre-Tribbers actually have to prove that when Jesus said ‘you cannot know the day or hour,’ He was talking about His Rapture return and not His Day-of-the-Lord return. Otherwise they don’t have a case for their version of the any-moment-in-time imminency of the Rapture.
c) Matthew 24:36: A quick look at one of the key passages where Jesus says ‘you-can’t-know-the-day-or-hour’ proves that, in fact, pre-Tribbers can’t apply these passages to the Rapture – “But concerning THAT DAY and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
 This passage comes in the middle of Jesus’ famous End-Time message found in Matthew 24-25. So what is ‘that day’ of which Jesus says no one knows the time? It’s got to refer to something in the preceding verses of Matthew 24, since He doesn’t name the day in this sentence, only referring to it as ‘that day.’ Obviously it must refer to the day of Jesus’ return, which Jesus just finished describing a few verses earlier in Matthew 24:30-31, where He comes on the clouds of heaven to ‘gather his elect.’ Here is the passage: Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matt 24:30-31 (ESV)
 So far, so good if you’re a Pre-Trib believer, right? But there’s a problem . . .
d) The Pre-Trib Problem. What does verse 29 say? The passage above, about Jesus’ return and the Rapture, is missing a very important statement about its timing– here’s the passage in its entirety: "Immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matt 24:29-31 (ESV)
 Matthew 24:29-31 presents a huge problem for the Pre-Trib Rapture view, because it clearly states that the Rapture happens after the Tribulation. Pre-Tribbers, however, have figured out a way around the problem: they argue that the ‘elect’ in verse 31 refers only to the Jewish people saved during the Tribulation, not to the Church, which will be Raptured before-hand. Therefore, in the Pre-Trib view, Matthew 24:29-31 cannot be describing the Rapture of the Church, it must be describing the Day of the Lord.
e) The Contradiction: But – oops! – Pre-Tribbers have been applying the verses immediately following Matthew 24:29-31, the verses where Jesus states ‘you cannot know the day or hour’ (Matt 24:36,42 and 44) to the Rapture of the Church! They cannot have it both ways – either Matthew 24:29-31 is about the Rapture or it is about the Day of the Lord.
 So now Pre-Tribbers are caught in a Catch-22 trap: (1) if they say that Matthew 24:29-31 DOES describe the Rapture of the Church, they become Post-Tribbers because verse 29 clearly says that the gathering of ‘the elect’ happens after the Tribulation; (2) BUT, if they say that Matthew 24:29-31 DOESN’T describe the Rapture, then they cannot use verses 36, 42 or 44 (the ‘you cannot know the day or hour’ verses) to argue uthland Community Church, Steinbach MB Last updated: January 19th, 2011 Page 18
http://www.mysouthland.com
for the any-moment imminency of the Rapture, which is their biggest argument against the Post-Trib position!
 Conclusion: Pre-Trib’s whole argument for the any-moment-in-time imminency of the Rapture falls apart based on this passage alone. Why? Because in this passage Jesus clearly applied the phrase ‘you cannot know the day or hour’ to an event which both Post-Tribbers and Pre-Tribbers agree happens at THE END of the Tribulation (the Day of the Lord). That means Jesus’ ‘you-cannot-know-the-day-or-hour’ statements DO NOT/CANNOT mean ‘at-any-moment in history;’ they can only mean ‘AFTER the Tribulation.’ Therefore, when Jesus said ‘you cannot know the day or hour’ He must have been referring to the fact that we cannot know when the Tribulation will start; thus, we cannot know at this time when He will come back. At some point in the future, however, it will become very clear that Jesus is just about to come back: whether that be seven years before, at the beginning of the Tribulation, when the Antichrist confirms a covenant with many (Dan 9:27); or three and a half years before, when the abomination of desolation is set up; or whether it be the day that Jesus splits the sky, there will be a time when everyone will know the time when Jesus is just about to return. Jesus Himself confirms this fact in Luke 21: “Now when these things begin to take place [the signs listed in verses 25-26], straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” – Luke 21:28 (ESV) In other words, Jesus says that just before He comes back, the signs will become so clear that we should actually gaze up into the sky and look, because He is just about to return. So much for the Pre-Trib view of Jesus-could-surprise-us-at-any-moment-imminence!

06-17-2012, 06:41 PM

This is a strawman argument. In order to understand anything we read, we must pay attention to who is speaking, who they are speaking to, and what the topic of discussion is. Studying the Scriptures we must also differentiate between Israel, with her responsibilities and promises, and the church. Things that are different are not the same. If we try to make different things the same we will end up being confused, and God is not the author of confusion.

The verses the author referenced from the gospels quote Jesus speaking to his Jewish disciples about the timing and nature of his return to set up his Millennial Kingdom on earth. He could not be describing the rapture of the church because his disciples knew nothing about a church, let alone that it would be raptured, because God never promised Israel a church. Their promise was that God would set up a Kingdom in which the nation of Israel would rule the gentile nations under Christ from the throne of David. That is what they were discussing, not the rapture of the church. For the same reason, other Old Testament references offered by the author could not be speaking of the rapture of the church.

The church and the rapture of the church were still mysteries at that time. That is, they had yet to be revealed. Paul revealed the rapture of the church in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

Quote:Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Please note that the 'last trump' here is not referring to the seventh trump of the book of Revelation, which had not yet been written.

Building on his strawman argument the author proceeds to conflate the Second Coming of Christ to the earth, and the rapture of the church to meet the Lord in the air, completely ignoring the valid distinctions made by those with a dispensational view of the Scriptures.

Chin Music · 06-17-2012, 08:01 PM

(06-17-2012 03:03 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: Here is a rebuttal for your second point. I will only do one a time if you would like to respond that would be nice. It is easy to just say post tribbers have a problem with this and then not explain how it is problem.

I did not post to debate the subject. I posted to simply agree with SilverSPUR and chose to use Chuck Missler's short paper as a way to explain my belief. I respect your right to believe in pre, mid, or post for really it changes nothing in the grand scheme. If you wish to satisfy yourself on point 2 and get deeper clarification I would suggest getting Chuck Missler's teaching on the Rapture and find the explanation as to how it is a problem from his point of view.

I was once a great sinner who was changed by faith in the blood of the Lamb. Saved by a merciful God who paid the price for all my selfishness. He constantly works on this old bag of bones and mercifully He makes me better day by day. As King David said....

Psalm 25:4-8 (NKJV)
(4) Show me Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths.
(5) Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my
salvation; On You I wait all the day.
(6) Remember, O LORD, Your tender mercies and Your lovingkindnesses,
For they are from of old.
(7) Do not remember the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions;
According to Your mercy remember me, For Your goodness’ sake, O
LORD.
(8) Good and upright is the LORD; Therefore He teaches sinners in the
way.

My best guess is that He does the same with you. He does so without prejudice of one being pre, mid, or post and that is really all that matters.

Grace and Peace

Viper_99 · (This post was last modified: 06-24-2012 10:41 PM by Viper_99.)

I agree to some extent that it is not a matter of salvation. However, I think it is an important issue for the North American church. My big concern is the pre-tribber's hope to escape the tribulation and if that doesn't happen they way they think, many of them will lose their salvation. There will be a great turning away in the end times, which is getting very close. That is my point - I'm done!

Chin Music · 06-26-2012, 02:41 PM

(06-24-2012 10:39 PM)Viper_99 Wrote: I agree to some extent that it is not a matter of salvation. However, I think it is an important issue for the North American church. My big concern is the pre-tribber's hope to escape the tribulation and if that doesn't happen they way they think, many of them will lose their salvation. There will be a great turning away in the end times, which is getting very close. That is my point - I'm done!

Dear brother in Christ,

If I frustrated you it was not my intent to do so. You are showing compassion for the body of Christ, which is good, and I commend you for that. Let’s look at some scripture to see if we can calm some of those concerns if not all.

1 John 2:18-20 (NKJV)
(18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. (19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
(20) But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

I believe the Apostle John is pretty straight forward here that if any go out from us (body of Christ) they were never really of us. I can assure you IF I am wrong about a pre-trib rapture I will continue in Christ for I have been bought with a price. Consider …

Romans 6:16-18 (NKJV)
(16) Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? (17) But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. (18) And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

We should also consider the words of Jesus himself who paid a great price for our ransom. He, who is creator of ALL things, is more than able to keep what is His.

John 10:27-30 (NKJV)
(27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (28) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. (30) I and My Father are one.”

Jesus says NO ONE is able snatch us out of His hand or the Fathers hand. Sounds like we are in good hands.

Grace and Peace