Apostles, Prophets,Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers

[Chin Music]

I have been looking at the five positions outlined in Ephesians 4 for quite a few years now. I would like to open a dialog among the body of Christ to gain knowledge of what perceptions exist on this subject. Below I am posting a copy of a post from another blog that I found interesting. In doing so I am NOT saying I fully agree or disagree. I would like to read level headed thoughts and discussions based around the original authors thoughts. I did some editing to the original text but only to correct spelling and grammar. I thoughtfully made the edit changes that kept the original authors thoughts intact. Sorry for the length of everything but it helps to keep full thought flow ....................

“God bless you one and all. As you may have already recognized, church, especially in the USA has fallen way short of expectations and potential in the last century. Why is that? Well there are a wide variety of reasons.

One deficiency I want to focus in on is the deficiency in our churches of Evangelists, Prophets, and Apostles. Where are they? Why is it that pastors rule their kingdoms instead of re-presenting God's kingdom? Now and then you run across Teachers, but where are the rest?

Churches, when run like commercial corporations, have a "CEO", Chief Executive Officer, a pastor. This is the "man at the top". Jesus said if we wanted to be at the top of His kingdom, we had to be a servant for the rest of the Body. From this ultra simplistic statement, we realize that it is infinitely more complex than stated, but let's keep it simple for illustration sake. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers are the foundational stones that are set in place after the cornerstone. They support the rest of the body. They are not at some lofty position; they labor to serve all the rest.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:11…And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

These men are not elected by popular vote; they are given to us by
God. If God has given them to us, where are they? Why are not all five more prominent among our church bodies? What have we done with these "gifts"???????

Ephesians 4:12…His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),

God's intention was to give all five to the church for the perfecting and fully equipping of the saints, that they should do the work of the ministry. Now this is quite clear. (Before you think about whether or not the saints are doing the work of the ministry, think about what ministry really is. For a clue, please pause here and read Isaiah 58 and Matthew 25:31-46). So ask yourself again, who is really doing the ministry in your church. Is it just one man and everyone else helps him with his ministry, or are the saints really doing the work of the ministry? Who is building up Christ's Body in your local body?

Ephesians 4:13…[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

His purpose is to have a Body that is one, fully functional, not just one or two parts. He wants a church that fully comprehends Who Jesus Christ really is. Do all the members of your local body fully comprehend who Jesus is? To answer that question, are they living their lives in such a way that the standard they hold too and live out in their everyday lives is Jesus Christ? Can others see Jesus Christ readily in the lives of the saints? If not, then we have not fully comprehended who Jesus is. If we did, we would yield our vessels completely to Him and walk in obedience. If all of this is so, and I know in most cases it is, then we still need Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists functioning in our churches. Amen? Where are they?

Ephesians 4:14…So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.

Have you seen the saints tossed around to and fro? Have you seen them running after teaching and false doctrines of unscrupulous men? I sure have. Then we must still need the Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelists. But where are they? Has God failed to give them? If God has given them, have they been recognized and received? If not, why not? What is our loss because of it?

Yes, I know that there are as many false prophets in the world, perhaps more, than there are real ones and the same can be said for Apostles and Evangelists. Does this mean that at the mention of such a nomenclature, that we heave and run? Do you do that when "pastor" is mentioned? Let's be honest, if most pastors were following the Lord, they would welcome real Apostles and Prophets, Evangelist too. My Lord, it would sure make their job easier. But if their job is only a job, and their financial income relies on it, then they must keep themselves at the top of the pile and their pockets at the bottom of the money chute that flows so freely in corporation church.

I'd like to share an object lesson with you to help you better understand. The object is found on your arm. The object lesson for this illustration is your hand. As you look at it, I hope it has 4 fingers and a thumb. In Ephesians 4, Paul tells us that God gave to the church Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, Teachers, and Pastors for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry. These are commonly called the five fold ministry although this description is not exactly accurate, but let’s not get distracted with that right now.

As you look at your hand, the index finger represents the prophet because he points the way. The middle finger represents the evangelist, because he goes the longest distance. The ring finger represents the pastor, because that finger is associated with love, covering, and the heart. The small finger represents the teacher. Now, let’s work our way back to where we started. The teacher works really well along side the pastor, but not the evangelist or the prophet. The teacher's make up and gifts are designed this way so that the Teacher most benefits the Pastor and the congregation that the Pastor watches over. The pastor is located between the teacher and the evangelist. These are the two he works best with. One wins souls, the other trains them. The pastor oversees the process. A shepherd leads his sheep.

The evangelist is between the prophet and the pastor. Someone has to take in the new babes and feed them and shepherd them. The pastor and teacher are well equipped for this. The prophet provides insight for the evangelist and helps keep things pointed in the right direction. They hear from God and reveal His heart and purpose for the hour, not just the future.

Now the thumb represents the apostle. The apostle works best with the prophet, but it is the only member on the hand that can touch all the other fingers quite easily. The apostle helps keep a tight grip on the church and assists all their other leaders in the training process. All the others depend on the apostle to hold things together. The Apostle is also capable of operating and working with all the others on a close and personal basis, and even filling in if needed for a short time. The Apostle is gifted in like ministry with all the other four. They are prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral, and capable teachers. The Apostle is responsible for unity among the local body, and local bodies. He presides over sound doctrine, and helps all the other four keep their grip on truth and love. He appoints leadership that is called of God, not elected because they are popular. Jesus was not popular, especially when it came to the religious crowd.

If your hand has only a ring finger on it, it is very limited in what it can accomplish, even though your ring finger may be a very hard worker.

The hand needs all the fingers and its thumb to be effective in its work. The church needs all its faculties, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers if it is going to be effective. I do believe that this lack in our churches over the past 100 years and even longer is one of the biggest contributing factors to the ineffectiveness of the church.”

[Chette]

can you link directly to the place where you copied this from?

[Chin Music]

(07-09-2012 08:54 PM)Chette Wrote:  can you link directly to the place where you copied this from?

Brother Chette,
Yes I can but sorry I won't at this time. I would like to see input here first on what is posted without any influence from the other site where the original came from. Please understand.

[Chette]

ok i read the site already and there are few fundamental things missing in his understanding. the key is found in right division 2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Yes my answer that solves all these problems when you study you also want to follow the Holy Ghost in comparing spiritual with spiritual 1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. so comparison and division must take place to get a better understanding.

there are a group of Israelites in Exodus Known as the church in the wilderness, and a group of Israelites from Matthew through and beyond Act11(Gal1-3) they are known as the church built on the rock, and there will be another group in Hebrews 12 during Jacob's Trouble (the great tribulation) known as the church of the fist born None of these Churches are "the Body of Christ" the fullness of him. None of them have assurance of Salvation so they must endure to the end, keep commandments, Overcome the wicked one the antichrist and when Christ returns all three of the members of these churches will either be alive or will be resurrected to enter the kingdom that was prepared for them as a promise to Israel and David.

They have gifts of the Holy Ghost, they have the Unction, They have the Holy Ghost and are not the Body of Christ. when scripture is not rightly divided the problem is mixing certain doctrines. Paul was laying out the progression on how the churches were to learn from beginning to the end of the tribulation for that is when all shall be brought unto Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The Apostles taught the church built on the rock Act 1-8, Evangelist were seen going to Samaria in Acts still progressing the church built on the rock with the Kingdom Gospel. Philips daughters were prophetesses and Agabus was a prophet and by this time they are mentioned in the Bible the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 had already taken place and the church the Body of Christ the fullness of him Eph 1:23 which was based on the gospel of Grace, the mystery revealed to Paul had already began the new program set up by God. We know it as the age of Grace.

The Apostles and Prophets along with their Gospel passes along with the church in the wilderness and their gifts will arise again at the time of Jacob's Trouble. The Evangelist today takes the gospel of Grace (not the gospel of the kingdom) to the world under the Ambassadorship and ministry of Reconciliation given to all Christians to the lost world. Pastors and teachers can be one office or two but are the primary way the church is taught today. During Jacob's trouble there wont be pastors and teachers there will be apostles, prophets and evangelist but the gospel they will proclaim will be the gospel of the Kingdom again.

Paul had gifts up unto the closing of Acts but even then healing was not longer happening for him he left a few men sick, and seen others get near death before God answered Paul's prayer for healing. Prophecy nearly all but dropped out of sight and unto this day many false prophets teach. Evangelist shall preach the gospel of Grace, and Pastors and teachers will teach the Body of Christ and it shall continue until the gathering of the body of Christ into the clouds. After that the church of the firstborn will arise after the Desolation is offered upon the newly built temple in Jerusalem.

Ephesians 4:11-13 clearly and simple is the way believers were taught and it will go until the end of the Great Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, after that there will no longer be a need for these that Christ gave. Today we have Evangelist, pastors and Teachers we should be grateful for them. these gifting if we call them that do line up with Roms 12, 1 Cor 12 as well.

At the site where this article came from you will notice he is trying to promote the doctrines of the church as found in Acts 2-3 having communes, apostles teachings all for the church build on the rock and the church of the first born but NOT for the church the Body of Christ, the fullness of Him. Fail to rightly divide me will stumble at Matthew, Acts and Hebrews and instead of divide they blend. and blend of poison that will send the unwitting soul to hell. Beware of false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Chin Music]

Chette,

It appears no one else wants a discussion on this. You asked earlier for a link to the post I copied. It is below ........

http://housechurch.org/cgi-bin/bbcgi_hc/...topic/61/1

[SilverSPUR]

The topic of "Spiritual Gifts" in the New Testament is a wonderful subject to study and discuss! I have been currently teaching through this in our Church. It is way too broad a subject matter to fully discuss here! However, it is important to understand! Paul told the Corinthians that he didn't want them to be without understanding in this (I Cor.12:1) since every believer is gifted for the sake of edifying the body of Christ (I Cor.12:7,11; Ephesians 4:12). The Holy Spirit wants to use each and every member of the body to help bring each and every other member of the body of Christ, and the whole body, "...unto the full maturity of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph. 4:13)

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, ...let us...do it..." (Rom.12:5-8). We are commanded to minister to one another!! ...whatever our giftedness!!

May God use us fully all for His Glory!!